"Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

This forum is for other possible methods for fusion such as Sonolumenescense, Cold Fusion, CANR/LENR or accelerator fusion. It should contain all theory, discussions and even construction and URLs related to "other than fusor, fusion".
Post Reply
User avatar
Paul_Schatzkin
Site Admin
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 12:49 pm
Real name: aka The Perfesser
Contact:

"Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

Here's the latest wrinkle from my Google Alert.

https://captimes.com/events/executive-b ... 4806a.html

Most of that is fluff about the website itself, but the quote that got my attentions is
...the company can use neutrons to turn uranium that costs $6 a gram into a material used in medical diagnostic imaging that is valued at $150 million a gram. Piefer pointed to the sugar packets on the tables around the conference room as he spoke, and noted that each one contained about 2 grams of crystals. "If one those (packets) were full of molybdenum-99, it would be (worth) $300 million," he said.
... which sure sounds like nuclear alchemy to my untrained eye.

I found the Shine Technologies website,

https://www.shinefusion.com/neutron-generators/

and this description of their'neutron generators:
Our beam-target electronic neutron generators primarily use a beam of deuterium ions to drive neutron emission...By stripping away the single electron of a deuterium atom, you end up with a positively-charged ion consisting solely of a neutron and a proton. The positively-charged ions are consolidated into a high current beam and fired at a target at up to 300kV...The target of the ion beam inside a neutron generator can be a solid or a gas, and it can contain either more deuterium or another hydrogen isotope called tritium
... which sounds to me like firing two guns at each other and expect the bullets to fuse together just because they meet in the middle.

Is anybody here familiar with this technology? Is it a more viable way of producing a neutron flux than the fusor?

--PS
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
JoeBallantyne
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:08 pm
Real name: Joe Ballantyne
Location: Redmond, WA

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by JoeBallantyne »

It basically is a fusor. Except they are using D-T not D-D. And they call it beam on target, because they are firing deuterons into a tritium gas target. A fusor is basically a beam on target device also, even though we don't call it that.

The neutrons they get from their fusion reaction are used to drive a fission reaction that makes even more neutrons, that they use to make their precious Moly 99.

It works.

They built a prototype with Los Alamos labs I believe, and I think they may have one running in Wisconsin as well.

Their fusion/fission "reactor" is setup so that it cannot function without the neutrons coming from the fusion reaction. Shut off the switch on Shine's fancy fusor, and the whole thing shuts off. That was one of the key design criteria of the whole shebang. That there be NO WAY for the fission reaction to run away. Basically they are building a $200 million plus structure that will hold ~8 big neutron ovens where they will cook up their Moly 99 using lots of neutrons.

So they can make Moly 99 without using an actual nuclear reactor with all of its risks. Of course what they are really after is what Moly 99 decays into - Technetium 99m. Which is injected into people for medical imaging purposes.

Joe.
JoeBallantyne
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:08 pm
Real name: Joe Ballantyne
Location: Redmond, WA

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by JoeBallantyne »

They got lots of money from DOE to pursue this - as being able to make medical isotopes without using typical nuclear reactors is a good thing. Since this new design at least theoretically can never melt down.

They got lots of private money also. So it is a public and privately funded venture, with (I believe) all of the ultimate ownership residing in only private hands.

Funny how that seems to always be the case... public funding enriching private investors.

Joe.
JoeBallantyne
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:08 pm
Real name: Joe Ballantyne
Location: Redmond, WA

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by JoeBallantyne »

Greg Piefer worked with fusors when he was getting his PhD from the University of Wisconsin Madison.

He is building fancy high powered ones now... that will hopefully make him and a number of other investors a lot of money.

Joe.
Last edited by JoeBallantyne on Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Liam David
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:30 pm
Real name: Liam David
Location: Arizona

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Liam David »

Solid/gas target systems can provide much higher neutron fluxes than a fusor ever will, and at a much higher efficiency than a glow discharge fusor. Gas targets are inherently superior due to the high stopping power of solid targets. Shine's record is something like 1e13 n/s but other labs have built BOT systems that produce on the order of (I think) 1e16 n/s with multiple MW. Proton-lithium systems produce the highest fluxes, I think, but at many MeV. For power production, these topologies are a dead end. A simple yield calculation based on cross-section and stopping power is enough to squash hopes. Shine's "Fusion Power Generation" page says a whole lotta nothing and is misleading if not downright dishonest about what that kind of tech can achieve.
JoeBallantyne
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:08 pm
Real name: Joe Ballantyne
Location: Redmond, WA

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by JoeBallantyne »

In my mind, a fusor is any device that accelerates ions with either static or dynamic electric fields for the purpose of slamming them into something and making fusion happen.

Simple glow discharge fusors are the kind poor amateurs tend to build. But Farnsworth, Hirsch and Meeks built some that used focused ion beams.

I wouldn't classify their early non glow discharge devices as something other than a fusor.

I don't think they would have either.

I don't think it has been definitively resolved where all of the glow discharge fusion reactions actually occur. I suspect that some happen in the central plasma core, and some also happen in the walls. Based on the increased neutron production that Jon Rosenstiel got from using Titanium end pieces in his fusor that capture deuterium, I suspect that a significant amount of the fusion made by glow discharge fusors, is actually happening in the walls, in the same kind of way that a beam on target device operates.

I like to define the fusor universe as large, not small, and so IMO Shines fusion producing devices can be considered part of that universe.

Granted, others may feel differently about the matter.

I still think Shine is building fancy fusors...

Joe.
User avatar
Paul_Schatzkin
Site Admin
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 12:49 pm
Real name: aka The Perfesser
Contact:

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

I still think Shine is building fancy fusors...
That was my suspicion, as well.

--P
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
William Turner
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:09 am
Real name: William Turner

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by William Turner »

My basic understanding of the original intention of a fusor (IEC) is to take advantage of re-circulation to increase the probability of fusion. Shine makes no effort for recirculation, just the highest power D beam into a T gas target (differentially pumped ... let that sink in for a minute - recovering all the tritium in the pumping system and discarding all the other gases but making sure tritium hasn't contaminated any of the other constituents HTO, CHT, etc). Shine's device is a one-way trip for ions.

@Liam - I think they also use a beryllium multiplier and rely on additional multiplication from the uranium. You can read all about it on NRC's ADAMS database. Shine is still not approved to do squat with uranium.
JoeBallantyne
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:08 pm
Real name: Joe Ballantyne
Location: Redmond, WA

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by JoeBallantyne »

I'm pretty sure that SHINEs original design was always going to use uranium to multiply neutron production.

As to the status of their approval to do so from NRC, I have no idea, but I do know that the NRC has pretty much bent over backward to help them get going, so I will be SHOCKED if they are ultimately denied permission to do what they are planning to do. The NRC has known about it for a long time now.

This is what the NNSA - National Nuclear Security Administration has to say about SHINE and its competitors.


Joe.
William Turner
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:09 am
Real name: William Turner

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by William Turner »

I agree it's likely that they will receive full approval eventually ... they just have a lot of steps left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SosIKeFbSyo
User avatar
Rich Feldman
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:59 pm
Real name: Rich Feldman
Location: Santa Clara County, CA, USA

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Rich Feldman »

We've been discussing the Shine project for years. Here's a link to fusor.net discussion about it right after HEAS 2018.
viewtopic.php?p=80977#p80977
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
User avatar
Paul_Schatzkin
Site Admin
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 12:49 pm
Real name: aka The Perfesser
Contact:

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

And now it all comes full circle:

viewtopic.php?p=80977#p80977
At the ANS meeting Greg picked me out of the crowd and introduced himself as the speaker. I told him that I had a fusor doing fusion and that there was fusor.net. Wide-eyed and in an excited tone, he said, "Yes, I know... Richard, you are a legend!"....... We followed your and others work on fusor.net" ....I thought, What!??

It turns out Greg was working on his doctorate at the University of Wisconsin, Madison in the 90's and worked with their fusor constantly. Part of that effort had their people read fusor.net to see what we were up to. Greg said he read often and was impressed with what he saw of our efforts.
--P
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14975
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Richard Hull »

Yes this is a real honest project that is pushed here to make the U.S. no longer dependent on foreign source of the valuable medical isotope Tc99M.
The hype related to the packets of sugar filled with Mo99 being worth hundreds of millions, unfortunately is true on the face of it. But 1 single gram of Mo99 has most likely never been produced!

It is produced in sub-microgram quantities by bombarding regular inexpensive Mo98 with neutrons for several days to create Mo99 which decays into Tc99m. The real cost comes in the chemical extraction of the various isotopes at microgram levels. You need a lot of neutrons to do this and this is where their NRC license to use fissile Uranium to a vastly subcritical level in solution to get those high levels of thermal neutrons which comes in handy allowing them to do this.

Greg's fusor experience at U of W came in handy as an initiator to the fission process which Shine uses.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
User avatar
Rich Feldman
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:59 pm
Real name: Rich Feldman
Location: Santa Clara County, CA, USA

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Rich Feldman »

The only way Shine's neutron multiplier could get critical,
is if it were mistakenly filled with uranium in solution at too high a concentration or enrichment.
Like most of the criticality accidents that have happened in nuclear fuel-processing facilities.

I trust that the NRC will be sufficiently conservative about safety protocols for Shine approval.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
User avatar
Ed Meserve
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:51 pm
Real name: Ed Meserve
Location: Maine, USA

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Ed Meserve »

I've recently been listening to the "Titan's of Nuclear" podcast back log and the interview with Evan Sengbusch in 2019 discusses their neutron generator (among other things) for Moly99 production:

https://www.titansofnuclear.com/experts/EvanSengbusch

The whole podcast series (so far haven't made it all the way through yet) has been very interesting.

Also:

https://www.titansofnuclear.com/experts/GregPiefer

Ed
Ed Meserve
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14975
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Richard Hull »

The second URL that Ed submitted is the winner for we fusioneers who understand not only fusion but fission as well. Thanks Ed! I haven't talked to Greg since 2012 when they had just received a tentative go ahead on the licensing for shine.

Greg is on the same page with me...... Fusion currently and in the foreseeable future is a bust for usable energy. He agrees with me that at some unknown point fusion is the energy of the future with zero clear path to it now. He also understands that we must, right now, build many new fission plants or we are at extreme risk of energy shortfall in the very near future. Fission is just an intermediate step from chemical energy to fusion energy, but it is a must embrace step that needs implementation immediately!!

Greg does mention the complex mess in the IEC fusor that just screws all the elegant theory into a more or less irreducible thermalized mess. He knows! As he worked on the U of W fusor staff and team working on his PhD.

This is the best and most cogent, scientifically explanatory, interview I have had the pleasure to listen to recently. The interviewer is no dummy as he gets Greg to explain a few points that the audience might not grasp as he guides Greg through salient points in his company's process. The key discussion sidelines into isotopic neutron sources and why they will not work as well as his fusor like BOT source developed for "Shine".

This not a good interview for the average dolt off the street. It is best listened to by someone with some past or present knowledge of basic nuclear physics. Just the thing for those here who are not just doers, but learner's as well. The in-it-to-win it crowd are assemblers and not curious amateur scientists seeking to understand, at the core level, all the processes.

A must listen to for those who would learn more. Worth the hour+ of your life.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
User avatar
Paul_Schatzkin
Site Admin
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 12:49 pm
Real name: aka The Perfesser
Contact:

Re: "Shine Technologies" - 21st Century Alchemy?

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

Richard Hull wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:34 pm The second URL that Ed submitted is the winner for we fusioneers who understand not only fusion but fission as well....A must listen to for those who would learn more. Worth the hour+ of your life.
I dunno how many Mac/Apple/iPhone users we have here, but I use the Podcasts app on my iPhone to listen to podcasts like this so I dialed up the URLs that will open directly in that app:

The "Titans of Nuclear" podcast is here:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/t ... 1331598443

The episode with Greg Pieter is here:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e ... 0587016151

And just for grins, there is a recent episode with Miss America 2023 here:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e ... 0587016151

I know, it's probably some kind of sexist of me to drop in that last link, but I found it intriguing.

I know most of this will be lost on me, but I'm gonna listen to this tomorrow anyway

--PS
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
Post Reply

Return to “Other Forms of Fusion - Theory, Construction, Discussion, URLs”