Helion Energy - New Video

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Nicolas Krause
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Helion Energy - New Video

Post by Nicolas Krause »

Here's a new half hour film about Helion, a Seattle based startup that's attracted a bunch of funding from some big names. Lots of general information about their device, don't know that they've released hard numbers, but interesting nonetheless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDXXWQxK38
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

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And here's a link to a note on their website about the device. There is unfortunately not a lot of detail. They note some temperatures (100 million degrees Kelvin), there's a neat photo of some deposition on the walls of their vacuum chamber, and they say they "saw evidence of bulk deuterium-Helium 3 fusion". No clue as to what that evidence was though. There's also some suggestions that they demonstrated direct energy conversion from the device. But again, light on details.
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

Post by Frank Sanns »

They seem to be enjoying their work. Venture capitalist keep funding them so good for them.

As for the technology, there is is variations on the theme of others. I do like the large plasma reservoir with convergence in the middle as I had such a design minus the magnets early on.

The magnetic peristalsis as they call it is kind of a progressive Z pinch. Lots of energy use and slow switching no matter what kind of capacitors and coils that you have. Not looking good for much fusion and certainly not a high Q.

It seems that if somebody worked out the physics behind all of this, they and others could have saved a ton of time and money. So many of these ventures just do not have a clue to how much energy and confinement is needed to do fusion at any appreciable rate.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

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True that the few details turn out to be no hard data or discussion of it. This might alert the tuned in crowd that it is another in a long list of lost causes or they are just not giving up their "secrets". We all know about how once you drop your pants folks can see it all and what they see might not be pretty in the sense that they were ready to something great, but upon an in depth exposure see that nothing is really going to happen approaching what fusion was promised or expected. That is when the money leaves the room.

Frank is right in that they will never see a high Q total. We must learn from the NIF debacle breakthrough to always focus like a Laser, (no pun intended), on only one thing..... Q total.

When I see a fusion Q total, be it putt-putt or plasma of 5.0 running 24-7-365, then, and only then, will fusion energy become what it must be to make the bean counters happy. Remember, no scientist nor any team of engineers will ever OK the production and distribution of one watt of fusion energy until the bean counters at the power companies give their unequivocal go ahead. 100 years into the future perhaps, should the world stability continue and nations fund the effort. We should be so lucky.

As for NIF achieving ignition...HA! LOL...they used 300megajoules to ignite for some nanoseconds time frame, one single shot to produce 3 megajoules of true fusion energy that came to naught in being used or converted to any form of viable energy. A mere 100 to 1 net loss, lightning stroke. All will say in support, they have a way to go and this is the first real step, just give them time and money. We've been doing that since 1952!

All the King's horses and all the King's men...........

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

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Nicolas Krause wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:11 pm Here's a new half hour film about Helion, a Seattle based startup that's attracted a bunch of funding from some big names.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDXXWQxK38
Good catch. That actually came up on my YouTube this afternoon while I was having lunch, I watched most of it. I don't pretend to comprehend most of what their thing does, but, honestly, they lost me as soon as I heard the word 'magnets'

I appreciate that they're talking about direct-power conversion – I'm sure that helps sell the VCs – but their approach still sounds as much like a Rube Goldberg machine as the heat-to-power conversion routine of a conventional fission reactor/generator. I mean, compared to the rank simplicity of a fusor... and yeah I know, what's the ratio, 10,000:1? Still.

I still just wanna know what Farnsworth saw that night he fried the fusor in 1965.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

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The current net loss on an amateur fusor in first pass is on the order of a billion to 1 net loss. (1,000,000,000:1) 500 watts in 0.5 microwatts out in fusion particle summed energies. Among the finest fusors yet seen here we might claim a 1,000,000:1 net loss. What wouldn't I give for a fusor with a huge gain to 10,000:1 net loss.

We will never know what Farnsworth saw back in 1965. We move on...

I supply all the math on this in the following FAQ. (in an attached PDF file)

I go to one of my better runs of fusor V, where I achieved 2 million fusions per second being produced for the data.

You will see the math shows I did all of this fusion at a net loss of 220,000,000:1

viewtopic.php?t=13284

The fact that it has been downloaded 180 times and assuming it was read and understood by 180 people, my teaching mission is justified in the time it took to assemble the FAQ. FAQs are teachable moments if taken to heart.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

Post by Nicolas Krause »

Sorry, just to confirm what you're saying Richard and Paul. Richard, I had understood from your oral histories that the fusor had been damaged during an experiment, that a hole had been burned in it. You both appear to be saying that the supposed damage occurred during the apocryphal late-night experiment by Farnsworth? Is my understanding correct?
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The 'Apocryphal Event.'

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

I'll defer to Richard on the details, he spoke with Gene Meeks about that specific event but I did not.

I know there was at least one occasion when the anode shell was breached, but I cannot say for certain if that's what Gene found the morning after the 'apocryphal event.'

Richard?
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

Post by Frank Sanns »

It was after hours. Philo too his wife, Pem, to the lab. Philo started up the Fusor and at some point, the power spiked up and the arms and insulators on the ion guns became transparent. Philo switched off the main power but the power then spiked very high and with the opposite polarity. There was a breach or failure of some component of the device and it shut down. Philo remarked something on the order of I have seen enough. Richard or Johnathan may be able to fill in those exact words.

It was a fairly catastrophic event that took many components with it.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

.
Frank, I think you have conflated a couple of different events there. The ‘transparent ion guns’ was something other than ‘Pem and Phil after hours at the lab. Again, Richard has the details and may not need to do much more than link to his prior reporting on those subjects.

I’m out now, when I get home this evening I think I’ll excerpt that chapter from my book and post it somewhere.

—PS
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
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"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

Post by Richard Hull »

The Perfesser gets a cigar! There were literally many events that took place due to accidents, mistakes, mis-operation and blunder.

George Bain working by himself, after working hours noticed transparent guns. He was preping for a super important big wig visit from NY corporate heads in the morning. This one isolated event was relayed to me by Bain only after telling Bain about the Meeks/Hirsch invisibility event. No one talked about unusual events there.

The Farnsworth team only had their funding extended due to Meeks running a oudin coil (vacuum tester) sparking behind two giant cabinets to make the new Neutron counter deflect to fake fusion in front of visiting NY heads. This fake-out got them their first big funding for FY 1963. I was loath to mention this in the history. This was a formal collusion between Meeks and Bain to keep their jobs and make Farnsworth's effort seem productive. (Another isolated event) It is to be remembered that the new neutron counter was though defective as it was not showing counts. Farnsworth, by peer pressure, alone, had his team convinced that his early fusor efforts were doing fusion and were kicking out neutrons. The fake-out was needed to keep the non-fusing bell jar funded. Enough RF radiating from a tesla type oudin coil on large metal cabinets was enough to tickle the counter into the needle moving up range.

The guns on all fusors after late 1964 were cantankerous and when not setup properly could create a beam runaway and burn holes in the fusor vessel. Chicago Float and the machine shop headed by Wayne Frame at Pontiac street kept the team supplied with fresh fusor bodies. The pit fusor tended to have burn-throughs rather frequently. The cave fusor even over its several iteration never had a burn through, but Meeks was the operator and designer of its guns.

The Farnsworth/Pem nocturnal visit had an electron runaway, over drove the supply and burned out two milliamp meters that had to be replaced the next day, along with a badly burned inner dynode. (reported by Geek Meeks) who personally did all the work to clean up after Farnsworth who had never operated the pit fusor in his life! Farnsworth had been present when others operated it in key tests when he was either invited or demanded a demo.

As to what Farnsworth saw....he never told anyone on the team about any nuance he saw or experienced while damaging their carefully tended pit fusor. The team was "steamed" over the damage Phil did that fateful night.

I observe that most all of the idiocy, bungling, blunders, mistakes, bad ideas, hero worship, fake-outs, misapprehensions and lack of knowledge occurred 1959-1963. Once Hirsch arrived things got somewhat straightened out and moving forward in fusion. Bain admitted that he was much relieved when Hirsch arrived, (summer 63). He was finally working with another formally graduated college man who was a specialist in fusion physics.

Farnsworth's last hands on operation was in 1961 when the little glass bell jar fusor in the basement had no active guns on it.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Helion Energy - New Video

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

.
I have started a fresh thread with a link to Chapter 19: That's All I Need to See here:

viewtopic.php?t=14709

--PS
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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