A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post links to other interesting fusion or alternate energy sites here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Dennis P Brown
Posts: 3160
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 10:46 am
Real name: Dennis Brown

A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Interesting Vid about a liquid metal battery I have not heard of till now. This company has started full production to supply mega-watt storage battery systems. This is a real facility producing fully 'certified' batteries with real orders from companies needing to store solar power on power plant level scales. Rather impressive - I knew there were big advances in battery storage tech but had no idea it had progressed to this level. That this battery has in fact been has been certificated by an agency responsible for such things (Didn't know there was such a thing) - indicates that, apparently, they do have a rock solid design.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqnDPVwHJE
Matt_Gibson
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:36 am
Real name: Matt Gibson

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Looks neat. I’d be interested in its cost ($/MWh) and its footprint. I’ll have to ask Nextera about this…

-Matt
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14992
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Richard Hull »

Antimony is as rare on earth as silver, yet its price is far below silver being on the order of $15-$25 per pound. ( silver ~$250/lb)
Antimony is cheaper as it is found in other ores and is economically extracted as tramp metal while processing ores rich in other metals.
How many pounds of antimony/kw hour are needed in the liquid metal battery?

Calcium is rarely reduced to metal on this planet. However it is plentiful and abundant. (sixth most abundant element on earth)
Industrially, if needed, it is easily reduced to metal via electrolysis of one of its molten salts.
Calcium, as a metal, molten or not, is rather reactive in moist air.

Liquid metal batteries would require its own infrastructure that doesn't exist now, related to the above.
Increased mining of antimony would be demanded.

Oddly, Bismuth is one of the most rare elements on earth in parts per billion, far less abundant in the earth's crust than gold, but you can buy it all day at Rotometals for around $10/lb. Why?
It is easily found in vast deposits of lead and many other heavy metals and easily extracted. Bismuth is highly concentrated when found.
Gold is found in microscopic quantities in rock and it is widely and thinly distributed over the planet. As such, gold is costly to extract from what are very poor ores. In the case of gold, you are paying for vast mining and extraction and working of tons of rock for each ounce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance ... l_elements



Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
User avatar
Dennis P Brown
Posts: 3160
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 10:46 am
Real name: Dennis Brown

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Dennis P Brown »

The foot print is large as is the weight; this can be deduced because the cell is in a large steel case that is heavily insulated. It really is applicable only for Grid applications but appears rather well designed for such an application (80 % return on storage energy - no cycle issues). Seems ideal for meg-watt storage for a wind or solar farms, and even as backup for a regular grid. For me, the issue is total lifetime for the container - that is the case and electrode feed-thru seals lifetime (through these are just engineering issues not innate chemical or physics limitations.) Unlike the electrolytics or even electrodes, the physical storage system looks to be its most likely failure point for long term cycling.

In any case, they have a production line and contracts are on going. So certainly companies believe it is viable. Being certified (i.e. tested for performance/safety by an independent standard's agency) is a big point. So, looks to be a first for large mega-watt storage and actual production. That it is a hot (500 C!) liquid metal battery is rather surprising for it to be 'first' for a Grid backup battery.

Didn't know the primary metal - antimony - was readily available and not too expense...for now. Guess if this was to be used by many utilities, antimony might go way up in price.
Matt_Gibson
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:36 am
Real name: Matt Gibson

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Matt_Gibson »

It would need to be in the 10s of MWh capacity without needing to clear a forest in order to get the attention of an electric utility, at affordable prices. Right now, storage for solar really is only meant for stability of solar output. Solar arrays wreak havoc on electric utilities.

-Matt
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14992
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Richard Hull »

Matt hit on it. In the end, be it fusion or energy storage, the bean counters at the utilities and the consumers willingness to see electricity costs soar due to any costly change in the way energy is to be delivered are the drivers. After all, who on this entire planet will leave the grid in a fully self-sufficient manner and tell the power companies they don't want them to deliver electricity to their home any longer!....HA! Gottcha!

There is always the hippy and tree hugger solution. "tune in, turn on and drop out". Live in a tiny one room, "dugout" house with solar to storage battery consuming 300 watts per night for light and maybe antenna TV on a 15-inch screen. Chop wood for heat. Who needs grid electricity if it gets too expensive?

The bean counters know they have a totally...well...99.998% captive user base, but they also know there can come a point where the barbarians will be at the gates.

The government? Well they don't know anything. They are on top and intend to stay there at any price. Their solution.....Bread and circus linked to promises of a brave new world.

One thing is for sure, renewables stand zero chance without inexpensive, totally reliable net giga-watt storage across the entire grid. Even the 300watt-hour per day dugout needs some lead acid battery storage for its modest solar array. Who needs solar in daylight? You have plenty of light and you are gonna' be out chopping wood and hunting game in daylight. The battery will give you the 300 watt-hours of light as you huddle around your little wood stove with Bowser at your side, watching local TV channels.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
User avatar
Rich Feldman
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:59 pm
Real name: Rich Feldman
Location: Santa Clara County, CA, USA

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Rich Feldman »

Thanks for sharing. It seems obvious that lithium ion batteries make sense for phones and cars, where weight matters more than cost, and will not be the long-term winner for utility scale energy storage.

One utility-level storage technology to keep an eye on is sodium-sulfur batteries, which operate at around 300 °C where those elements are both liquid. Sodium is the cheapest metal in the world by volume.
In 2021 the global installed capacity of NaS batteries was about 600 MW (4,100 MWh).
https://www.sandia.gov/ess-ssl/wp-conte ... akoshi.pdf

Who shares my disgust at seeing pumped-hydro energy storage systems
presented as "water batteries" in news media accounts?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/01/world/wa ... index.html
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
Matt_Gibson
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:36 am
Real name: Matt Gibson

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Ahhh…The water battery. I’ve seen a few proposals for those at my last job since we were electric AND water/wastewater (we had water towers). It just looked completely worthless…I told them to first crack the perpetual motion device and then get back with me.

I’m all for being environmentally friendly, but not to the point where society begins to backtrack its technology progress or where we have to suffer.

Progress takes energy, a lot of it.

-Matt
User avatar
Rich Feldman
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:59 pm
Real name: Rich Feldman
Location: Santa Clara County, CA, USA

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Rich Feldman »

By whatever name, pumped hydro will always have a place in serious utility-scale energy storage.
Of course it usually depends on suitable natural topography for reservoirs.

But the technology has been mature for decades, and its round-trip energy efficiency is close enough to 100%
that it can't be dramatically beaten by realizable chemical battery systems.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14992
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Richard Hull »

Pumped Hydro is great if the natural, local geography fits since the amount of work to implement it is reduced in any effort to get it ready to work. This is especially nice if the weather sensitive renewable is close at hand. (wind, solar).

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Matt_Gibson
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:36 am
Real name: Matt Gibson

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Matt_Gibson »

The main problem we found when looking at ideas that involved solar to power a water pump (to fill a water tower that would then dump the water through a turbine) was the flow rate needed to get anything useful back. It was much much cheaper to just charge up a battery and discharge back into the grid during peak usage times.

Edit: Now regular hydro is okay. We have a small portion of our power coming from a traditional hydro plant and it’s energy and power rates are better than our power supplier.

-Matt
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14992
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Richard Hull »

Proper pumped hydro usually makes use of a extant dam where the water run thru it is corralled at the base and pumped back up to its natural reservoir. No tank or tower is involved. Pumped hydro makes use of a natural topography of an extant dam/reservoir where the water going over it is allowed to flow down river as mere "water over the dam". Enough is captured to supply feed water for overnight power usage.

This concept will work more locally than rival a hoover or boulder dam project. It has to make sense based on the size and capacity of the renewable at hand. Just like giant dams, such sites are rare, but far more common than gigawatt dam systems. They present themselves as a possible cost effective solution for modest overnight or even multiday storage on a local scale.

In the end even the giant dams as well as the small ones are, themselves, vulnerable to the vagaries of weather. (Lake Mead).

Whether you are into climate change or just global warming the glorified savior of renewables suffer under the sword of Damocles as do we all this sword is called weather. The Sun and only the Sun supplies 100% of all the energy that drives the weather.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
User avatar
Dennis P Brown
Posts: 3160
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 10:46 am
Real name: Dennis Brown

Re: A Liquid Metal Battery has started Production for the Grid

Post by Dennis P Brown »

What I am most surprised by is the shear progress these new types of batteries have made due to the interest in energy storage for wind and solar. Investments over the last ten years are paying off with very promising improvements in electro-chemical storage - the salt battery Rich mentions, the iron-oxide battery (I posted awhile ago) and the the one starting this thread all look like viable batteries. Of course all these batteries are very heavy and two exploit rather high temperatures (300 and 500 C) so use for cars and the like are not remotely possible. However, the issue is grid storage for handling surge power or windless/cloudy day needs. In that respect these (all three) looked extremely promising (and two are in production for large scale Grid use. That is, continuous mega-watt range delivery for up to three days.)

The issue for wind and solar has always been energy storage and this problem (for large scale use, not likely home use) looks to being solved in an 'economic' manner - that is, these materials are rather inexpensive, safe during operation, non-dangerous to the environment, and appear to offer extremely long deep cycle times. While these developments are exciting and certainly useful - still not a game changer but a huge step. Only real world use of these battery types and then cost analysis will prove if these batteries are truly what is needed and most importantly, economically viable (bean counters are one thing and important, but we the bill payers are far more interested in reasonable rates!) But certainly these developments are extremely promising and make solar/wind far more viable (but hardly the singular solution.)
Post Reply

Return to “Interesting Links”