Oil options for rough pumps

Every fusor and fusion system seems to need a vacuum. This area is for detailed discussion of vacuum systems, materials, gauging, etc. related to fusor or fusion research.
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AngeloGomes
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Oil options for rough pumps

Post by AngeloGomes » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:49 am

Hi, I am looking for cheaper options for Ultragrade 19 from Edwards.

I read the specs for Ultragrade 19 and it says a vapour pressure of 1e-8 Torr !! Or this value is over-estimated or this oil is indeed a fantastic oil compared to the options I've found (1e-3 to 1e-5 Torr).

I would like to know which other oil brands do you recommend.

Regards.

Angelo

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Richard Hull
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by Richard Hull » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:18 pm

If your pump is a direct drive pump, any good common refrigerator evacuation pump oil will do. ~ $25.00/gallon.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Rex Allers
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by Rex Allers » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:58 pm

Angelo,
I get the impression that you think this oil in a fore pump will achieve vacuum on the order of these vapor pressures. That is far from reality. Using good oil in a good condition pump will typically give a vacuum at the pump input somewhere between 1 to 15 millitorr. The condition and quality of the pump is the main factor. The best new two-stage direct drive or belt drive pump is unlikely to get below 1 to 3 millitorr in normal operation.

This kind of pump oil will often have a '19' somewhere in its name. Here is one current listing:
https://www.duniway.com/part/mpo-190-1

However, someone on these forums did an experiment in that last couple years comparing two oils in the same pump. One was a good scientific '19' oil and the other was an oil sold for use in air conditioning service pumps. They found a large difference in vacuums attained. If I remember correctly the '19' oil was below 10 millitorr and the other oil was >50 millitorr. So it seems wise to find a version of '19' oil rather than the brands sold for A/C service.
Rex Allers

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AngeloGomes
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by AngeloGomes » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:24 pm

Hi Rex.

No absolutely not. I have some basic knowledge of vacuum pumps and I know that 1E-8 Torr is for turbo pumps and maybe difusion pumps. I was talking about how impressive specs the Ultragrade 19 is.

In my labs, we have edwards, adixen (old alcatel), pfeiffer, and not so old varian pumps. However, Edwards pumps is majority so we only used Ultragrade 19 and I would like to know if there is cheaper but quality compatible to it.

Here a small list:

Ultragrade 19
PLUS UG19 from Precision Plus
Ultra 19 from John Morris
Inland 19 from Inland
Vacoil 19 from Vacoil
IVP 19 fom Ideal Vaccuum Products


I was wondering who is the real oil manufacturer of these oils. For sure, they buy a 55 gallon and sell small quantities as it's own brand.

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Mark Rowley
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by Mark Rowley » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:34 am

Rex,
In my Yellowjacket pump I use standard HVAC oil and have been since 2002. Attaining 15mTorr and little below is a piece of cake. I contend that if someone cant get below 50mTorr (even with cheap oil) they undoubtedly have other issues.

Angelo,
For a neutron producing fusor you wont need roughing pumps to go ultra low (sub 20mTorr). The secondary pump will easily compensate for the leftover pressure and get you to where you want. Based on you working in a lab I'd suspect you're aware of that.

Not a recommendation, but neutron producing fusion can be done with just a blue collar HVAC roughing pump at 15-30mTorr. Controlling D2 pressure is annoyingly sluggish but it's not what I'd call difficult. And you wont break any records either. Unless vacuum extremes is a parallel hobby to the fusor, no need to go overkill on vacuum capabilities.

Mark Rowley

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AngeloGomes
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by AngeloGomes » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:10 pm

I was looking for an email message I received a long time ago when I requested the price for vacuum pump oil to an Adixen/Alcatel representative.

The options the gave me were:

Shell Vitrea 100
Maxioil Sinthy 46


The vitrea 100 is easy to find, but the Maxioil I don't find anywhere. Maybe there is a spelling error.

Well, I just found this on a Adixen Manual:

Mineral oils:
ELF MOVIXA PV 100, TURBELF SA 100,
BP CS 100 (BP registered trademark)
SHELL VITREA 100 (SHELL registered trademark)
TOTAL CORTIS PV 100 (TOTAL registered trademark)
INLAND 19, INLAND 20 (INLAND registered trademark)
MR 200 (MATSUMURA registered trademark)

Mineral-based synthetic oils:
ELF BARELF F 100, ELF BARELF C 68 (ELF registered trademark)
INVOIL 20 (INLAND registered trademark)
INLAND TW (INLAND registered trademark)
ELITE Z (CAMBRIGE MILL PRODUCTS, INC. reg. trademark)

Ester type synthetic oils:
ANDEROL 555 (ANDEROL-BV registered trademark)
ANDEROL RCF 96 N (ANDEROL-BV registered trademark)

Fluorocarbon synthetic oils:
FOMBLIN YL VAC 25-6 (MONTEDISON registered trademark)
KRYTOX 15-25 (DU PONT DE NEMOURS registered trademark)
HALOVAC 100 (HALOCARBON registered trademark)
AFLUNOX 15.25 (SCM registered trademark)

Note: In this case, pump performances may be slightly different from those given in
pages 9 and 10.
Last edited by AngeloGomes on Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Victor Gonzalez
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by Victor Gonzalez » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:22 pm

I used the Alcatel A119 mineral oil in my pfeiffer duo10M pump.
The vapour pressure of the oil is ~10^-5 mBar, with final pressure of the dual stage vane pump being ~8.10^-3 mBar.
I bought from Avaco in Brazil, price around R$220 per liter.

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AngeloGomes
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by AngeloGomes » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:11 pm

220 BRL = 52 USD per liter....

No way...

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AngeloGomes
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by AngeloGomes » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:40 pm

Excellent text found at https://vacaero.com/information-resourc ... pumps.html


"Where to buy Vacuum Pump oils and fluids

This is not a forum to advertise or promote specific suppliers, but let me say this. No vacuum pump manufacturer or vacuum pump industry distributor processes oils or fluids for its own use. There are three companies that I know of in the USA who probably or possibly process base oils for vacuum pump use, I have not seen their plants to show otherwise. All vacuum pump manufacturers have their own “name and/or grade” for oils that they warranty as a suitable product for their pumps. Most vacuum pump oils, with low vapor pressure, are refined by specialized oil companies that can process relatively low volumes of product. These companies can “private label” the vacuum pump fluids they process in any container size and with any name on it.
You may pay a premium to buy your vacuum pump oils from a vacuum pump manufacturer, but you are assured of the correct fluid. Other suppliers may offer a cross reference to their product, but be careful that it is an equivalent. Lastly, I suggest that you never buy “vacuum pump oil” without knowing that it is the correct oil for your pump and application.

""

Bruce Meagher
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Re: Oil options for rough pumps

Post by Bruce Meagher » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:38 am

Mark,

I respectively disagree with your statement about HVAC oil, and I believe it’s poor advice to provide others on the forum. I was the one that had my son run the test with HVAC oil so he could learn about vapor pressure. Here’s the thread <viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12189&start=50#p80020>. Unfortunately all the pictures are missing right now, but maybe they’ll be back soon. I’m sure the particular HVAC oil you purchased had a low enough vapor pressure to allow you to achieve your desired base pressure at your pump's operating temperature. In my experience, this will rarely be the case with cheap HVAC oil. However, in the spirit of scientific replication I’ll gladly ship you some new HVAC oil from Amazon (identical to what Tyler and Samuel tried - 4.8 stars rating too!) so you can test it in your Yellowjacket pump. It’ll either freshen up that 17 year oil and prove me a fool (yet again), or it’ll ruin your base pressure requiring some flushing. PM me if you’re interested.

Angelo,

You can find VacOil 19 for $35 a gallon (VacOil 20 is $50 a gallon) in the states. I’m not sure about the availability in Brazil, but I’ve used this in my direct drive pumps with good results. Also the vapor pressure specs are temperature dependent. You might want to investigate the temperature of the oil near the vanes / outlet of your pump and see the vapor pressure spec for that temperature.

Bruce

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