Reading th' perfesser's new book. He's done it again!

Post by **Richard Hull** » Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:11 pm

The Man Who Mastered Gravity, Paul Schatzkin, 2023.

Amazon has it...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0976200031/re ... d_swatch_0

What a hopeful title! If only...

Note: This is not a review of the entire book but first impressions from a man, myself, quite familiar with the work of T.T. Brown for which he is so acclaimed. I spent many years in electrostatics with hands-on experimenting at ESI's special built lab facilities with Charles Yost, reading assiduously, yet never saw one sign of what is termed "electrogravitics". I am now on chapter 13 yet am intrigued with what Paul has done. I have not arrived at the good stuff yet, but am close, and am still in free fall into the "rabbit hole", just about to land in wonderland, I am sure.

This is a great read for me in many ways. I was CEO of Electric Spacecraft Inc., 2005-2009 and was a friend the company's founder, Charles Yost, from 1990 until his death in March 2005. Charles created a trust into which I was inducted as CEO, and managing editor of its quarterly publication, The Electric Spacecraft Journal. Richmond to Asheville, N.C is over a 7 hour drive! A CEO at range for sure. As the corporate name states, Charles Yost spent a lot of money and time looking into "electrogravitics" as did Thomas Townsend Brown and others. A seemingly never ending quest with zero results, (direct link to fusion I think).

This book is the story of T.T. Brown told in a fashion mingled with fact and possible pseudo science, bizarre circumstance, intrigue and so much more. It is a tale woven by the Perfesser in a fashion whereby, using his own words, "Like Alice, I jumped down the rabbit hole". It is a must have for those who have followed 20th century scientific folks working at the "edge", (what ever that means). Such was a person like Tesla, Farnsworth, T.T. Brown and any number of others who got tangled up in their own and other people's under ware. This was mostly to their peril, but others were often affected as well. If these scientific investigators/inventors never got the acclaim they deserved, they certainly have a faithful train of followers regardless of any facts, fictions or inventions. Interested in diurnal petrovoltaic changes? Good ole T.T. investigated them! Few ever live the variegated life path of this man but just like Tesla, Farnworth, and T.T. Brown they died in relative obscurity.

Rabbit hole or not, th' Perfesser seems up to the task, much as a docent leading us into as much of the rabbit hole he has some knowledge of, having walked in the mysterious world through the looking glass, for even he admits, far too long.

My great joy is that he starts writing chapters of 3-4 pages each! Being a slow reader and falling asleep all too easy at 76, I really feel like I am getting somewhere at chapter 13 on page 76 of this well done appendixes and indexed tome of nearly 450 pages!

Jump down the rabbit hole with me. It's fun, creepy, mysterious, and a humorous look at an icon well known for his failed efforts, yet with a vast following. Check it out!

Richard Hull

P.S. What I believe...

1. The aliens have it! (if there are aliens)
2. We have it if we have any working alien craft (If Bob Lazar and some of the folks from S-4 are telling the truth).
3. If 1. and 2. above are true, I am not sure we can manufacture such craft for any number of reasons.
4. I do not believe for a microsecond that T.T. Brown had any original work by his own hand that touches on the operation of electrogravitics or related in any way to 1. or 2., if they are true.
5. I do believe the government (some agencies) are feeding us a line of B.S. (when a closed door session of the congressional oversight committee on UAPs is secret, you know this stuff is a national security matter.....And just how much B.S. are they feeding the committee in "secret session")

RH

Post by **Richard Hull** » Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:13 pm

As the above book deals with the major claim of Brown's life and the one that created the vast following of the man, (electrogravitics associated with the Biefield-Brown effect), I feel it necessary to examine the reality of physics and the basis of light and electromagnetism in the vacuum of space. We are talking about space travel after all, related to this effect!

I feel that space travel via the supposed "electrogravitic" method would involve some form of linkage between electromagnetism and gravity. (grand unified field theory). The latter theory is currently in never-never land of no hope. Currently in the battle related to gravity is the argument that it is just curved space! Yet, as of this moment, we see no curved space where there is no matter or a collapse of it. One can go nuts choosing between matter as the source of gravity or a displacement of space by matter causing matter within that space to fall inward towards the center of that neutrally charged matter. Notice I said neutrally charged matter.

The "electro" in electrogravitics is only there because of experiments related to the so-called electrogravitic effect (biefield-brown effect) demands that electrostatic force be induced between two conductive pieces of matter. This brings in electromagnetism to the theoretical concerns in electrogravitics.

All electromagnetism equations revolve around the observed fact that electromagnetic waves can move through space at the speed of light. The equations and all field theory force two values to exist to a specific value to define the speed of light within a vacuum. These are the permittivity of free space (~8.8 picofarads/meter) and the permeability of free space (1.25 uH/meter). Modern SI unit want to define both by the force laws based upon the newton meters per square ampere! This allows, in the minds-eye, the electromagnetic energy carried by light (electromagnetic waves) to have a viable force associated with it in its reactions with matter. (Look up permittivity and permeability if you dare to try and understand further).

The upshot is electrogravitics uses only applied electrical forces against the two key values in space that determine the velocity of light. As there are no currents constantly flowing in a purely capacitive system once the charge is established (assuming no leakage in a pure vacuum), only the permittivity of free space is involved and only forces between the two charged bodies are involved. (electrostatics). This is why, in a vacuum, the effect on the system understudy sees no relative motion to its background surroundings.

In air, the huge electrical stress seen to move the "Naudin lifter" of dissimilar sized electrodes is due to ion wind (charged molecules set in motion off the small wire electrode above the thin foil aluminum sheet below. I proved this violence of ion bombardment using aluminized mylar for the large lower sheet electrode in a lifter which I constructed at the Electric Spacecraft, Inc. lab in North Carolina in 2003. The molecular layer of aluminum was stripped of its aluminum by the violence of charged molecules streaming past it (ionic wind). photos below of the result. Naturally as the aluminum was stripped away the lower electrode lost its surface conductivity (capacitance) and the craft lost lift.

This was never seen with the solid aluminum foil based Naudin lifters used in all previous lifters shown of the internet. Thus, there is, indeed, an effect, on earth, in air, due solely to the ionic wind. (ions are created around the hair fine aerial wire and then accelerated downward at high velocity past the large aluminum electrode). This created a jet stream of moving air molecules, lifting the craft at a huge energy net loss needing a number of watts to lift a mass equal to a penny.

Click on images for enlarged view

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:25 am

Richard, excellent review of both the topic and book. Also, an outstanding effort showing this interesting (yet not anti-gravity) effect.

Needless to say, the puzzle of gravity is a scientific subject area near and dear to me (Through I have zero interest in anything to do with 'antigravity'. I accept Relativity as proven fact and in that, 'anti-gravity has no meaning since gravity isn't a force of attraction nor, for that matter, a force at all.)

I feel sorry for the person T.T. Brown - they did find a 'fun' effect but decided to dial it up to 'eleven' (well, more like thirteen ...

) instead of looking at it from the obvious 'pedestrian' angle. Oh, well.

Certainly, Tesla also went to eleven a few times, but some of his work was fantastically insightful and even brilliant on rare occasions (and yes, he invented the first true radio) - and I mean that word 'brilliant' in both senses. Tesla showed us the way in a number of important electrical areas (and as such, he has a fundamental unit of measure named after him. That is an extraordinarily rare honor!)

Only partly tragic (towards the end of his life) but couldn't argue that for much of his life a very successful person - he reached great heights in both technology and in social influence (and if one is noted by the enemies they make, then Tesla certainly is up there with J.P. Morgan as an enemy - that was Tesla's worse mistake.)

Yet very importantly, Tesla maintained his morality unlike a certain other more famous and so-called, 'great' inventor.

Post by **Richard Hull** » Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:25 pm

I am up to page 110 in my reading and starting to get settled into the rabbit hole.

As there is only matter and space, yet fully detected and identified, matter warps space. We know this as fact. I am super interested in inertia another property of only matter. Inertia is a force battling any change in motion of ponderable matter. It resists this change with a real force until the energy driving the change in motion either goes away or is dissipated to zero. The universe is not happy and will not leave matter alone until it is all in a constant velocity relative to the rest of the firmament.

Warped space can accelerate or decelerate matter. In doing so, it always robs energy from the nearby mass that warps the space it enters. When we slingshot a craft around a planet, we use the warped space and the relative velocity of the larger body to accelerate the small craft. In doing so, we rob orbital motion, (Momentum/velocity) of the planet. (Its orbit decays) This follows Newton's laws. The energy of the planet in orbit and the velocity of the craft, both mutually resisted the operation here via each orb's inertia. The small spacecraft gained momentum while resisting this acceleration, thereby, robing the planet of some of its momentum (put the brakes on the planet's orbital velocity) The universe via inertia associated with matter did the energy exchange. The warping of space by both objects remains unchanged as their mass is unchanged.

As the craft speeds away from the planet the inherent mass based forces that drove the inertia based energy exchange disappears. We say they just exchanged energy of momentum, but inertia did the transference. The planet's inertia resisted the slow down and the craft resisted the acceleration.

It is only fair that I note modern physics doesn't consider Inertia as a force. Ever try and push a stalled car of the road?? Did it or did it not resist your force with a force of its own against you. Once you got it rolling in motion, little energy was required to keep it rolling. .... Unless you were stupid enough to try and push it up hill against the yearnings of the hole in space cause by the earth's mass that wants that car at the core of the earth.

Richard Hull

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:00 pm

First, Thank you Richard for posting about the book. I have meant to do that myself but... I dunno, just haven't yet. Maybe it's better this way.

Moving along to Dennis' post here, this is the stuff that really baffles me...

Dennis P Brown wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:25 am the puzzle of gravity is a scientific subject area near and dear to me (Through I have zero interest in anything to do with 'antigravity'. I accept Relativity as proven fact and in that, 'anti-gravity has no meaning since gravity isn't a force of attraction nor, for that matter, a force at all.)

Umm....???

So, then... why... when I do even the most cursory search, does the Google keep telling me that "there are four fundamental forces (interactions):

what are the four fundamental forces

The four fundamental forces are:

Gravity
Electromagnetic force
Strong nuclear force
Weak nuclear force

Source (via ChatGPT4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction

So... help me out here. Gravity IS or IS NOT a 'force' in the universe?

Whether or not there is antigravity, or whether there is a connection btw gravity and electromagnetism... how do we even have that discussion if we can't agree whether or not gravity is a 'force' to begin with?

And if it's not a force... then please explain why I am sitting here and not flying? Something is holding my butt in this chair. How is that not a 'force'?

I feel sorry for the person T.T. Brown - they did find a 'fun' effect but decided to dial it up to 'eleven' (well, more like thirteen ... ) instead of looking at it from the obvious 'pedestrian' angle. Oh, well.

The use of the expression 'fun effect' is also curious. Before I go any further, tell me which 'fun effect' you're referring to.

Because my experience in the rabbit hole suggests that the 'fun effect' most people think Brown discovered is not the effect that he did discover, and the about effect that he did discover... we know basically nothing.

Rabbit holes are like that.
.
.

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Wed Apr 05, 2023 5:54 am

Gravity is not a force in general relativity; further, pretty much all physicists accept this as fact. That said, in elementary physics (Often first year, and High school) the formula and 'force' idea developed by Newton is still used. This is identical to how classical physics is used instead of special, or even general relativity - we know light has a finite speed but in classical, we assume it is infinite, so the math is easier. Not unlike how an electric coil generates a magnetic field but in special relativity that is an electric field due to the speed of the electrons - a lot of not accurate but 'let's not confuse' starting students with complex math-based theories is still used. Glad they are because the math requirements for the accurate theories are rarely taught at the undergraduate level. And when they are, its senior level. So freshman physics would be a nightmare (more than it is

) if we required general relativity (GR) and its required mathematics for first year (or High school) students.

As for your question about 'sitting there' the fact is, all objects are in 'free fall'. As such, the Earth stops your 'natural state of free fall' and that is the force you feel. The force you are sensing is fictious in that no attraction is really occurring - there are no gravitons being exchanged. Rather the space is 'curved' s.t. you and the Earth share that space effect and you follow that path in your free fall towards Earth. Why so many sources still use that there are four, not three forces, is due primarily to what I have said - the reality would likely confuse 99% of the people and so physicist just let it slide - silly but that is the way it is. I don't approve of that very wrong acceptance at all and that is why here, in this science based forum, I explain the facts that are available to scientifically inclined people. You are certainly welcomed to continue to express that gravity is a force† - most people treat it as such and it is simpler, too. I have no problem with that but I will not follow an incorrect idea.

Yes, Wiki, or even in General Physics (first year) courses* it is treated as a real force, but the fact is, current experimental evidence does not support that idea. Certainly, GR does not and that theory explains a lot of known effects in the Universe and is one of the most accurate and deeply insightful theories ever developed and tested.

The only way to have 'anti-gravity' is if space curvature could be opposite. That, I believe, would likely require negative mass - whatever that is. To date, antimatter in extensive testing has shown no such properties so negative mass is still just a concept. As for gravity and electro-magnetism, they are not related. This is mainly due to the issue that gravity has no known force carrier - the hoped for graviton. Physicist would love it if such a force carrier existed but all attempts to 1) find it have failed 2) even model it at all have failed.

This issue is not unlike the problem we have when we are on Earth in a vast open area. It absolutely looks flat but as we are told the Earth is curved - that is, its average surface is curved - we still accept that the Earth is really a nearly round object despite the perception it does not look that way to our unaided eye. One can be fooled by one's unaided senses.

As for fun effect, Richard explained it. Yes, I do like that effect that Mr. Brown discovered. But it is easily explained and unless someone has reproducible proof, speculation after the occurrence does not make something true. Mr. Brown was likely sincere in his beliefs but wanting to believe something can also warp one's approach and experiments - happens far too often in science.

For instance, most of us (myself included) have often been impressed by accomplishments by ancient peoples that are so amazing compared to many things we do today that we refuse to accept that normal people did them. Like how did mere humans with only knowledge available 5000 years ago build the pyramids? Well, they did leave records (often these were ignored or discounted), and physical clues and now we understand how they did it and while amazing still, the techniques they used are very straight forward technology. Ditto for Roman concrete (lasts thousands of years unlike ours,) They got lucky to have a premade 'lime like' mineral from a local volcano. That very unique component (which has been located) made their concrete vastly superior to anything we have developed (though that is changing thanks to that discovery.) One can just assume super science, or one can accept reality for these amazing achievements by the ancients.

This aspect of current science frankly tends to destroy the magic we all want in the world (and I too miss that

) but huge claims require huge proof.

† Who knows, maybe one day someone will develop a better theory than GR and the graviton will then be discovered. So gravity will once again be treated as a force. I seriously doubt this and highly suspect that in one hundred years GR will continue to be used - assuming human caused global warming, new viruses and wars caused by this warming, still enable an existing interconnected and advancing world where people are working on these issues rather than simple survival. Though even then, I highly doubt the Earth's human population will be even half the current eight billion plus thanks to these issues.

* Those texts really should have a corrective footnote to fix this misleading idea!

Post by **Frank Sanns** » Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:58 am

Yes, great book. Thanks Paul!

What is the accepted place to publish a theory of everything to establish priority? I know there are many, many misses out there but just curious.

Post by **Richard Hull** » Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:01 am

As for publishing the theory of everything....

Nature is the premiere journal for the world. It has prestige and a place honored by scientists over the years. However, to me it is equal to the "Scientific American" for the elite and anointed. While peer reviewed, Most of its content is old news to the various people in the specific field reported. Why? Because each scientific field has its own peer reviewed journals, Like the Journal of Plasma Physics. It will not accept articles on biological discoveries or medicine, like the Journal of the AMA or Lancet Journals.

I imagine the theory of everything would be, at first, a mathematical exposition put forward in abstract terms. The physicists would then to think up an experiment to verify all of its ramifications. Journals specific to these fields would be the place to publish first as your theory would find its best critical reviews in these journals as you are battered and beat up through re-writes prior to it even seeing the light of day in one of these journals. There are "try fits" such as Physics Letters A, where you float an idea, or conclusion which may include experiment.

The common man may get a headline, "jumping the gun" like the recent BS about fusion from NIF, raising false hopes of fusion energy for the low and down at heel folks looking for good news in a world filled with all manner of night terrors.

Science tends to publish in and amongst its own. In this manner an idea can quickly be given the lie, or seem plausable enough against the many slings and arrows of its detractors within the discipline to be allowed a "maybe" open to further serious study.

Richard Hull

Post by **Richard Hull** » Wed Apr 05, 2023 10:16 am

Pauls' book is historical in nature related to a single man's life's work. As such, it is his excellent telling of the tales by others to him and his research into the newspapers and reports of the period. Including, even a "he said - she said" about whether he went to colleges that Brown claimed he went to. Paul researched this specific rabbit hole via documents and verbal stories.

The entire book is a rabbit hole that intrigues the reader from, be the reader, a dolt to a Scientist. (that is a wide audience)

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:20 am

I would be failing if I didn't add just how impressed I am by the incredible accomplishment that Paul Schatzkin has achieved in writing a book on the life of T.T. Brown!

This is obviously a work of someone extremely interested in novel ideas and approaches to science - something far too often ignored except for 'big names' in science.

My diversion into the rabbit hole of gravitational forces was a needless distraction from the interesting post/thread by Richard on this excellent book.

I very much look forward to further posts on this fascinating book that Richard is refencing.

Post by **Richard Hull** » Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:57 am

I am up to chapter 36 in this 90 chapter book! It answers a long held question by me....How did a non-college grad who enlisted in the navy as a an enlisted man, (common swabee), wind up as a navel officer?? Much good research done by Paul that, unfortunately, often bores deeper down the rabbit hole for the reader.

I now understand why in the early 2000's Paul would express to me his grave frustrations in his quest to tell the story of T.T. Brown.

Many who have regularly attended the October HEAS gatherings might remember Paul's evening talk to all assembled about his frustration over getting the straight story about T.T. Brown. As I see it, Paul had two ways to go, both involved just "giving up".....Stop the entire effort or publish the entire effort. I am glad he chose to publish.

In the end, the reader will have exited the rabbit hole and have to decide for themselves.... Was Brown a brilliant yet failed investigator/inventor or a self-aggrandizing, skilled, con-man with the gift of gab followed up by real work to keep 'em locked into funding his efforts? Was he involved in secret work surrounded by spooks from intelligence agencies? Perhaps he was a bit of all?

Richard Hull

Post by **Richard Hull** » Thu Apr 06, 2023 1:32 pm

I found this interesting and well done video and now toss it into the rabbit hole.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS_rEzKdzBA&t=35s

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:59 pm

Watched the vid. Again, fun. Also, they and the experts agree this isn't antigravity but possibly another effect. That said, does it work or not? Well, not answered in the vid but her computations were valid (peer reviewed.) That is NOT the same as proof of a device's actual operating properties or the real mechanism - that requires others to confirm. Does not appear either she did that and others tried but they too failed (yes, various excuses for this were given so her affect could still be considered viable - of course.) Apparently the affect is either too small to clearly establish a clear answer or maybe just isn't there.

So, is it possible by General Relativity? Not likely (again, requires negative space curvature) and as for gravity shielding - well, that is simply impossible by any accepted theory. I certainly won't discount the possible affect since she based it upon some valid physical foundations or it wouldn't have passed peer review.

Is it possible some type of useful effect that elevates a substance that does this can work at all? Well, maybe but that she never really did, nor anyone else, indicates to me that the answer is likely no. That she disappeared (and thank goodness it is made into a mystery or else we'd know one way or another) tends to indicate her work did not succeed even to her own satisfaction. It is stated in the vid that she went to China (not unreasonable) but somehow they know by means not mentioned, that - of course - the Chinese are 'pouring money' into this project. Sorry, that really makes me doubt this information on her efforts (not that it is impossible but unlikely they could really know this as fact.)

As for DoD funding - that occurs if an idea has merit and hers' certainly did. That they gave up on it certainly shows she failed to deliver on the goals she had set for the funding.

The death ray or vaporizing stuff is total B.S. and since she never claimed such nonsense that should not have been included. Even if the other antigravity person who was fired after no repeatable results said that silliness.

Certainly another rabbit hole but also one that has some believable scientific aspects to it. So, final judgement by my viewing -it is a fun vid but as for the device: well, seeing will be believing but not holding my breath for this to occur. That is, unless the Chinese send another floating device here that has no balloon attached

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:01 pm

.
{Thank you guys for this discussion. I am in the middle of and updated revision of my Farnsworth bio so that the two books together will look 'of a piece.' When I'm done with that I can spend some more time digesting all of the above. In the meantime... What follows is thoroughly uncororaborated, but since that's par for the course with 'all things Townsend Brown,' it can't make the discourse any more muddled than it already is. So... }

Last month I spoke by phone with one of the more active contributors in the old Townsend Brown forums (https://ttbrown.com/forum) when they were active between 2005-2009. He used the sock-puppet handle 'Mikado' on those forums, and until he acquiesces to the use of his actual name, I'll continue to protect his secret identity.

When things went off the cliff in 2009, 'Mikado' was building a solid dielectric gravitator.

So far as I know this is the only contemporary experiment with a solid dielectric stack, as Brown articulates in his early patents; it is very different from the fluid dielectric / ionic wind 'lifter'-type configuration – which, as I discuss in the book, may have been introduced as a way of deliberately discrediting Brown in the interest of diverting attention from his more sensitive work (insert #speculation here).

I don't remember the details of the Mikado's construction. I only remember that it consisted of a stack of electrodes and dielectric plates in the form of barium titanate. I have a couple of those barium titanate disks on my desk as I type and will attach a photo to this post.

When I asked Mikado about the gravitator he built, he said...

"It worked. It got lighter. On a calibrated scale, it weighed in 3 pound, 4 ounces. With DC power applied, it went down to 1 pound, 14 ounces."

Forgive me for not asking how much voltage was applied.

He then takes issue with the results Brown reported from his experiments in the 1920s-30s:

"...he talks about it being on a pendulum and going up and staying up, even when you take the power off. I worked with some discs many years ago, and it never did anything remotely like that."

While Mikado insists that what he observed is by no means an 'antigravity' effect, we are still left to wonder, umm... what could reduce "the mass of the mass"?

This was the first time I have talked to Mikado in at least ten years. The conversation was borderline contentious, since his relationship with Brown's daughter broke down much the same way mine did in 2009. He still has a great deal of resentment around that. Suffice it to say he cast a lot of aspersions on my sources.

I am posting this tasty tidbit only because this is, to the extent it's useful at all, the only instance I am aware of where somebody built a solid dielectric device based on the (so called) 'Biefeld Brown Effect.' One of the recurring themes in the book is this idea that if Brown discovered something original, it is manifest in the solid dielectric device, not the fluid dielectric device. Emphasis here is on the word "if."

Over the course of the narrative, there are several instances where knowledgeable witness reported something novel in Brown's devices. They are spelled out over the course of the book.

Mikado's results might be one more instance. I guess somebody else will have to build a similar device and provide a more detailed and verifiable account before we can accept the results.

Maybe someday Mikado will have more to say on the subject. But, of course, if he's gonna talk about here (or now on the resuscitated TTBrown forum), he'll have to use is honest-to-god real name.

I'm not holding my breath.

Now behold, the barium titanate discs:

Post by **Richard Hull** » Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:20 pm

Barium Titanate is extremely dense (heavy for it size). Alas, we have zero detailed data or diagram on his actual construction, voltage and current.
All the Titanates have dielectric constants going through the roof, >1000 is common. Unfortunately, their breakdown voltage per mil is low.

His reported "lift" is about 22 ounces. (mass did not go anywhere) Ion wind typically lifts grams. I love the way specifics of amazing claims are always short of images, details and thus, never subject to independent verification. And folks wonder why there are so many doubting Thomas' around this subject!

It is good to hear that Mikado is on the job. Believe him at your peril.

Richard Hull

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:59 pm

Richard Hull wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:20 pm It is good to hear that Mikado is on the job. Believe him at your peril.

The same could be said of just about every source who has ever chimed in on this topic (present company excluded, of course).

Post by **Richard Hull** » Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:00 am

As Franklin said, "Let the experiment be done!" Let it be done before a critical audience with full disclosure! (images of gear and full data)
We have called it "open source" now for years. The forums here are a shining example of how open source must present itself.

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:40 am

If someone refuses to give the details so others can replicate the experiment the claims should automatically be dismissed - HOWEVER! That is NOT the same as saying they did not see what they claimed to have seen.

Only that whatever they measured is either 1) does not work and they did something wrong that gave them the positive result or if it worked 2) but they can't reproduce that result again. I assume (maybe foolishly) that these people do experiments in good faith and are not lying. While this occurs, I honestly think most such amateur experimenters do try to be honest - yes, I really do. Unlike the big fusion project leaders.

I follow empirical knowledge (hence my issue with gravity not being a force) and if someone believes gravitons are real, then saying gravity is a force certainly follows.

The old I'm keeping it 'secret' because it's too dangerous, or the CIA will get me or I'm waiting due to ???? really, really gets old.

As always, great claims require great proof before I accept them as true

Regardless of this diversion, I am still interested in the T.T. Brown book. That you are writing another book is just so impressive and a subject that really desires more attention. I posted a bronze and life size statue of Farnsworth in another thread. Apparently, at least in San Franscisco, he is highly appreciated for his creations and contributions.

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:57 am

Dennis P Brown wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:40 am If someone refuses to give the details so others can replicate the experiment the claims should automatically be dismissed - HOWEVER! That is NOT the same as saying they did not see what they claimed to have seen.

I pretty much agree with everything Richard and Dennis are saying here about the veracity of Mikado's claims.

I posted what I did only because it is the closest I have to an answer to the likely question, "has anybody done anything with Brown's work (other than the lifter stuff) in this century? In the past forty or fifty years?

Mikado's statement is the only answer I presently have to that question – and I make that statement knowing full well that a statement over the phone and relayed in a post on the Internet is as reliable as the 73-year-old Chevy pickup in my garage.

Also, if memory serves me, when I recently asked Richard if he and Charles Yost conducted any experiments at ESJ with solid dielectric instruments, I'm pretty sure the answer that question was in the negative. I stand ready to be corrected if I'm wrong about that, too.

All of this underscores the difficulty of reporting anything as it pertains to the life of Townsend Brown.

Or, as I said to a friend who is reading the book, "I sometimes wish I'd open the book with a disclaimer like the one that opens the movie American Hustle: "Some of this actually happened."

And I'd feel better about the whole undertaking if I had a better idea where the line is drawn between what did and did not 'actually happen.'

No wonder I ran screaming out of the room with my hair on fire back in '09. And likewise, I have moments where I question my judgment about going back down the rabbit hole last year.

YMMV.

--P

Post by **Richard Hull** » Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:51 pm

To set the record Straight, ESI never did any research with di-electrics related to spacecraft propulsion or electrogravitic work. We wished to see motion of some sort that was power efficient related to lift or movement. Mass in all cases was kept low to detect even slight effects. We did market and sold the ESI "Electro-Wand" as a demo for electrostatics and motion control with the suspension in air of a light aluminized Mylar film loop ribbon.
I have demo'd this wand-loop item at a few HEAS meetings and the October conferences over the years. It is really cool.

Richard Hull

Post by **Richard Hull** » Fri Apr 07, 2023 4:19 pm

I have found an "Electric Spacecraft" website! no relation to ESI. I attach a URL. this is a serious site and someone is spending real money on kit and instruments! This is not a bunch of cheapo cobbled experimental gear. It is totally electrostatic in nature from what I see, but the work is open sourced! Included for those interested .

https://www.electricspacecraft.org/the-experiments.html

Apparently there is a CAY library site (Charles A. Yost) This includes offers for sale of digital copies of all the old 48 issues of the Electric Spacecraft Journal. While ESI, Inc. is dead, I think Charle's daughter or son is keeping their father's legacy out there. Here in the URL

https://caylibrary.com/

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:21 pm

Wow, that is some detailed and well done work but ruined by their concluding non-sense.

Also, rather confused by what they achieved (sorry, I only skimmed their work and looked at their results.) Now they set up opposite charges on the plates and measured an attractive force. If I recall, opposite charges attract (duh) and their charged plates are doing that. So could someone point out to me exactly what they did that is so impressive they can make these claims (here I'll give their conclusion that caught my attention):

"Chemical rockets, ion engines, airplanes, helicopters, and any machine that flies now has its days numbered. Soon the Land speeder, a hovering ground-based vehicle, and the hover board, are going to be a reality by the end of the next decade. Power plants capable of lifting and moving large weights using kilowatts or less of electric power is soon to become a reality."

All that aside - impressive effort no matter what - an experiment that was well documented and appears to have good data taking instrumentation. As for their further claims in that conclusion (far more "out there" then even the above) - well, I'll let those pass.

An aside: they seem to have forgot that an electric motor was used to power the plates up to speed. So, unless I missed it, their final total energy balance didn't appear to include that for their total power that was required to create the 25 milli-Newtons of 'lift' from the energy of residue in the the plates.

Post by **Richard Hull** » Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:35 am

You hit it. They spent time and money and did the experiment, regardless of the outcome and conclusions. This leaves them wide open for just critical review.

Richard Hull

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:02 pm

Richard Hull wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:13 pmThe equations and all field theory force two values to exist to a specific value to define the speed of light within a vacuum. These are the permittivity of free space (~8.8 picofarads/meter) and the permittivity of free space (1.25 uH/meter).... (Look up permittivity and permeability if you dare to try and understand further).

Uh, Richard, can you help us out here? It seems you used the word 'permittivity' twice - shouldn't one of them be 'permeability'?

There is a chapter in the book called 'Structure of Space' (#49) that uses these terms, drawn from something that Brown wrote while at Vega Aircraft in the mid-1940s. I didn't use a lot of detail from that paper, but used it to drawn a couple of conclusions based more on what my 'covert sources' were telling me. I'll be curious what you think of that chapter.

This is why, in a vacuum, the effect on the system understudy sees no relative motion to its background surroundings.

And, here, do you mean 'the system under study' (because to the best of my knowledge 'understudy' is a theatrical term).

If so, then this might be one of the points of contention (or just plain mystery?). There were several occasions when something... how do I put this? ... 'unaccounted for in conventional physics' was observed in something Brown built. That is what Biefeld attested to in the affidavit we found in Brown's Navy records, and also alluded to in the reports from the experiments in Paris. Bahnson came to a similar conclusion though by a somewhat more oblique route (I think the experiments most associated with Bahnson, based on the 16mm film footage, are more 'fluid dielectric' or 'ionic wind' experiments).

In air, the huge electrical stress seen to move the "Naudin lifter" of dissimilar sized electrodes is due to ion wind (charged molecules set in motion off the small wire electrode above the thin foil aluminum sheet below.

Let me know when you get to the 'Wounded Prairie Chicken' routine (late 40s/early 50s). The inference is that Brown was 'hiding' behind Ion Wind to divert attention from... well, something, we may never know what exactly. If anything.

That's pretty much how it goes in this rabbit hole; at times at seems bottomless, and at other times I suspect there may be no rabbit at all.
.
.

Post by **Richard Hull** » Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:42 pm

I have corrected and emboldened the 4/02 posting. Typing too fast with little sleep. Fixed now.

Permittivity is the purely electrical nature of space. Permeability is a purely magnetic nature of space. Motion in space by light demands these two combined values to exist and travel. Thus, the electromagnetic wave. Some think these are mutable over time (epochs)

In a purely electrostatic sense, with just voltage applied, there is never any significant current flow, unless you have ion wind which can cause a continuous lift motion as only voltage and current can cause continued motion, thrust or torque. (electric motor, door bell buzzer, etc.. Regardless of how much or how little voltage you have or apply, there must be a magnetic component associated with it to make the applied energy produce a continuous force, thereby, motion.

I think what Brown, Bahnson, and Charles Yost believed or felt that changing these values around a craft could somehow with out any explanation of how to do it could negate gravity and then propel a craft. Gravity, the bending of space, (take yer choice), due to the presence of matter, has never been linked in any manner to the electromagnetic forces. (God knows, the best of the best have and are still trying) As many experiments have been performed with the Brown idea in a vacuum chamber and no effect observed, the idea is rather dead. It will be noted that even in a vacuum the impulse of applying the high voltage will cause an instantaneous movement, but that is it! As a current is momentarily drawn in the electrostatic system which goes electrodynamic but for only an instant.

I am into the "black part" Chapter 48 is the next to be read as time permits.

Richard Hull

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Tue Apr 11, 2023 4:18 pm

Unfortunately, I know have two parallel threads running on two separate fora on these topics.

Richard, in particular, I encourage you to look at the documents embedded in this post:

https://www.ttbrown.com/forum/viewtopic ... 842#p21842

Jan Lundquist wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:35 pm The level of detail that is given in the report, about each experiment conducted by Sud Oeste, should satisfy even Richard Hull's critical standards, but the really good stuff begins on page 107 with Cornillion's 1955 Intelligence Report to Sud Oeste. On P111, he goes into great detail about his first meeting with Townsend:

Dr. Brown looked over Dr. Rose’s paper and smiled saying; “we have made enormous progress since this report was written”, however with respects to my inquiry he told me that he was not at liberty to discuss the issue at that exact moment. Without being specific he explained that he was under oath with official organizations not to discuss the subject with anyone. He did mention that he would inquire about the possibility of collaboration and that I should call him the next day. I told him I was surprised to hear about the security issues because Shank and Rose had informed me that the research had been abandoned. He told me that it wasn’t their fault because they themselves were unaware of Brown’s recent activities.

Here is the document Jan Lundquist is referring to:

https://ia902602.us.archive.org/16/item ... Report.pdf

It's an interesting read, translated by a (now deceased) French Canadian contributor to the original TTBrown.com fora.

It's a lot to chew on.
.
.

Post by **Richard Hull** » Wed Apr 12, 2023 1:27 am

I have always felt that any such experiments as might be suggested by any of Brown's devices might not even be valid on earth, even in a vacuum!
It would be all too easy to test this idea just outside the space station in a vacuum and a weightless state. Will the thing actually move with a continuously measurable thrust and at what energy efficiency?

I realize the balance pendulum in vacuo in circular motion looks good. But it would be nice to see a single naked miniature craft released on its own outside the space station actually move and accelerate.

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Wed Apr 12, 2023 5:27 am

Regardless of the merits of T.T. Brown's work (or more recent efforts by others), we shouldn't lose site of the fact that getting an overview of this person's work and the excitement it generated among some people is certainly a worthwhile thread here.

John Futter · Post by **John Futter** » Thu Apr 13, 2023 2:05 am

Has all the hallmarks of Cold Fusion

Post by **Richard Hull** » Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:41 am

At ESI, we had full access to all of this Brown information. Charles Yost was ever hopeful, I was under impressed. I was a "show me" guy. Charles knew this and relied on my forcing him into a pair of gravity boots on occasion. I have always felt that, 1. If their was anything to this electrogravitics and, 2. That the government was doing clandestine research into it that, 3. We would see something now from this effort, as opposed to burning 6 tons of LOX and Hydrazine per second over a period of minutes to loft 1 ton of material into low earth orbit.

Now, I do think there is a process to do this without burning rocket fuel. We just don't have a clue how to begin to do it! I also believe fusion will one day be available to us for energy, but likewise, we do not have a clue how to begin to do it!

We remain at this stage of the game, hunter gathers, but on a technological scale that far surpasses our Neanderthal ancestors. To stay warm and move about in our world we still must cast about and mine and drill from the earth all of the pre-cocked, preloaded, energy guns, where we need only pull a trigger to get all the energy we need for a modern society.

We used to gather wood, use a simple source of ignition and keep warm at night and cook our food, just throw on more wood to keep it going. We advanced to gathering coal, stuffing it into a boiler to create steam to keep warm and power railroads to deliver products from far and wide. This same steam drove industry to create a myriad of goods and products to clothe and feed us. Oil was refined to turn into products from Vaseline to gasoline. Gasoline explosions in a reciprocation engine powers cars and industrial machines. Using uranium mined from the earth, we do controlled fission to once again, boil water to turn generators to power electrical grids along with a diminished use of coal, oil, and natural gas. Our machines went from steam powered to oil and gas powered to electrical powered. However, we still must boil water to make steam to make electricity!

All, repeat, all of our energy is hunter gatherer based and utilize pulling of simple triggers on preloaded guns to create what would be runaway energy sources, were we not able to control them and bend them to our use. Even wind and solar are hunter gathered from the environment. No magic here, there never was! Just moving from picking up sticks in ancient ages to stay warm and cook food, to mining Uranium for the controlled release of stored nuclear binding energy from atoms formed in colliding neutron stars billions of year ago. We are nothing more than ever more learned hunter gatherers!! Even fusion, be it from the sun, (wind, hydro-electric and photovoltaics), to our successfully doing fusion at some future date, will again prove we are nothing more than hunter gatherers taking deuterium from the oceans and making Tritium in nuclear reactors.

T.T. brown and all those looking for anti-gravity systems, electrogravitics, space warping techniques, are trying, but failing. Look to the aliens for the answers, they have obviously been around a lot longer and have "the good stuff", but will they share it? Or, do they dare share it? What must they think of us? We are certainly fun to watch, I am sure.

The real thing is, again, if we have crashed craft can we figure out what makes them go?? Have we made a deal with them of sorts?

I am not a conspiracy theory guy, however, I do think they are here, have been here, and are now ever more present. Why? You fill in the blanks.

Curious? Got guts? Watch the documentary "phenomenon" On you tube it is every bit as engaging and as good as The planet of the humans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0Kr1TwKhQk&t=1435s

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:59 am

Even thermo-nuclear fusion would still be just "Hunter -Gathering" of energy thanks to the "Big Bang" (which was neither, by the way.) That source of energy was baked in by that process (besides providing what matters most - matter.

)

Post by **Richard Hull** » Thu Apr 13, 2023 12:26 pm

This book adds to the knowledge of the man T.T. brown. But from what I have read adds no new data on his supposed process. Instead, it proves he failed and never had anything of any value, whatsoever. Just like Farnsworth on fusion. Another epic attempt with an epic fail. All good ideas and processes yet net fails from the get-go. Did both Brown and Farnsworth failed to understand? No! They understood in their own minds all too well as they pushed forward. Alas, in these two specific venues, they failed. They carried to their graves nothing but ideas and feelings. There were no solutions.

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Thu Apr 13, 2023 6:47 pm

Thermo-nuclear fusion w/o an atomic bomb is hard (here on Earth.) Theories of Gravity are hard (that actually make sense and match observation) - through maybe not as hard as fusion. Still, these experimenters tried and frankly, that can provide a purpose that keeps one achieving, growing and trying - certainly a good epitaph for anyone. Farnsworth will remain famous for what he did achieve; T.T. Brown has at least achieved a book on his life.

Post by **Richard Hull** » Fri Apr 14, 2023 7:51 am

Much more has been written about Brown thanks to the UFO and outer space travel interest by the DIY community. It takes a deep dive to find out just how much interest there is in this area by a few serious folks and a sea of dabblers. Regardless of any supposed lift experiments, no one is keeping records of mass lifted versus energy demanded to lift, be it ion wind or supposed non-wind lift.

I found a you tube site where one investigator sounded as if he was getting lift that was not ion wind related lift. The next words out of his mouth was that he was set up to measure the voltage and current to determine the lift energy and then says he was not really all that interested in doing that at this moment in his research as he wished to use his time to follow his efforts with different mechanical configurations.

A subsequent video by this guy updated us that he and others working with him had applied for a patent after having deep pocket funding really boost their efforts and.......You bet! He could not really go into details on their related patent due to their money sources having economic interests in the invention that needed protecting. Another rabbit hole opens.........

Richard Hull

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:09 pm

Dennis P Brown wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:59 am Even thermo-nuclear fusion would still be just "Hunter -Gathering" of energy thanks to the "Big Bang" (which was neither, by the way.) That source of energy was baked in by that process (besides providing what matters most - matter. )

So, what? The 'Big Bang' was... neither big, nor a bang?

Kindly elaborate. With attributions, where applicable.

Thanks.
.

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:30 pm

The creation of the Universe occurred in a 'volume*' many, many orders of magnitude smaller than a proton; further, being a non-solid (but all energy/space), sound was impossible. So, the "Big Bang" was neither big nor a 'bang' (i.e. sound.)

The term was coined by someone who asked one of the scientist proposing the idea at a conference about the theory; this person was highly critical of the concept and used the term in a dismissive and sarcastic manner - but it stuck.

As the Universe expanded and 'cooled' lowering the energy and this allowed the Higgs field to 'condense'. This in turn created rest mass (for some types of particles - the ones we care about most.) Those electrons and quarks (now protons/neutrons) are what all matter is composed of today and what does 'matters' (as does the Higgs field.)

* talking about a volume for the initial genesis of the universe is a dangerous simplification and one not really applicable relative to three-dimensions and one that doesn't really describe something so 'out-of-understanding' using current physics. But there is no simple way to define the concept other than using that term. That the Universe is now expanding afterwards indicates the beginning was extremely small - again, a dangerous word for such a complex thing. The real problem as most would surmise is density - far beyond anything we can understand and far hotter still. Further, issues of space and time also cloud the mix. Frankly, not something anyone could hope to model using any current physics (after the creation - something like 10^-24 seconds later - models start to work or so they claim.)

I have my own ideas on how to deal with those initial issues (a density far, far beyond what is needed for a black hole) but that is 'rabbit hole' concept at the moment and I'll pass on any details - certainly for now.

Of course, wiki has a section on the "Big Bang" and that includes far more details and actual numbers for some of the processes.

Aside: as for extraterrestrials, the 'Dark Forest' concept is enough to hope no Aliens do 'discover' us.

Post by **Richard Hull** » Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:37 pm

Matter, by its nature, goes chemical on all planets where the temperature allows it. Chemicals can store energy just as radioactive atoms store energy. With chemicals, it is 100% electronic in nature. A few eV here a there in chemical compound atoms. A few million eV locked into the nucleus of some few heavy elements. All of this allows for hunter gathering and exploitation to obtain that energy.

Now, the fusion from the sun did a lot of photosynthesis in plants and the meager few eV compounded into complex carbonaceous molecules. This is truly a pitiable amount of stored chemical energy. Still, this is a cocked energy gun. The problem is you must gather 10-15 pounds of wood, peat or coal to assemble quintillions of these carbonaceous molecules to make a usable fire to cook and keep warm. A small spark or match can pull all the triggers of the pitiable low eV molecules adding up to a significant energy release over the life of the fire. Civilizations demanded millions of tons of coal be mined in the early 20th century.

Nuclear energy, stored in the heaviest of natural elements, contains millions of eV stored in each atom of uranium U235. However, you only need a very small amount. All it takes to release all the energy capable of destroying a city and kill hundreds of thousands is a source of slow neutrons. Such a neutron source is as easy as making a torch to light wood or coal. The neutrons will come if you just move two pieces of U235 of a critically computed mass towards one another. Now this instant release is great and just the ticket if you are in the mass killing and laying waste business.

To control the nuclear fire and not burn up your fuel in an instant, you just move enriched U235 close enough to not explode but to create megawatts of heat energy to boil water. You can easily quench or control the nuclear fire by interposing neutron absorbers in and among the U235 fuel. Easy as pie. You still have to hunter gather the Uranium from mother earth just like you did with wood, coal and oil. We've got it all figured, kinda', sorta, we hope, maybe....

The upshot is we would not be here if we did not hunter gather, kill for food, defense or sometimes kill for a fuel and food rich territory via simple good old fashion conquest. Hey Ma look at us.....Top of the world, Ma,....Top of the world!

Conquer gravity? HA! We can't control fusion beyond our ability of using fusion, already in hand, for a global nuclear exchange among nations.
Gravity? Look to the aliens, inter-dimensionals or time travelers....They move about with ease.

We, Brown, Naudin, Bahnson, got nutten'. (Unless we figured it out from crashed craft or were given it in some deal made by the devil with our wonderful, ever caring government.) There are a million ways to chase this rabbit down a myriad of real and conspiratorial rabbit holes.

Fooey! Screw it and all of them. I am well fed, well housed and am happy as a clam.

Richard Hull

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:38 am

Dennis P Brown wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2023 4:30 pm Aside: as for extraterrestrials, the 'Dark Forest' concept is enough to hope no Aliens do 'discover' us.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

--P

Post by **Richard Hull** » Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:27 am

You are not up to date on a number of actual events that have taken place of the third kind. Burn off a little life. It is worth while.
James Fox is the Paul Schatzkin of things that have happened which captured his attention. No one touches his work. He started years ago but his masterful documentary 2020 documentary put him on the map. His latest documentary is earth shattering. One dare not skip around lest one miss key moments. His documentaries use the famous voice of actor Peter Coyote as our docent.

The podcast (second below deals with his 2022 release.)

First "The phenomenon". Documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0Kr1TwKhQk

Second The podcast related to the newest documentary of the third kind that devoted its entirety to the one Varginiah, Brazil, UFO crash case.
"point of contact"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rrHV3Kczx0

There is no dark forest. Note, the second is a podcast related to his latest effort, person-to person with explicatives not deleted. Real conversation

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:45 pm

The "Dark Forest" idea of extraterrestrials:

"According to the theory, the universe is a dark forest and every civilization is a silent armed hunter who is treading very carefully without making any noise. The hunter cannot make his position known and if he does encounter anyone — a predator, another hunter or even a harmless herbivore — the only option he has is to eliminate them."

In other words, not unlike the Europeans discovering the America's, the more primitive civilization tends to get annihilated by the more advance civilization - relative to our past history, not always by intention.

The issue is that any species that can travel between stellar systems would make short work of us if so inclined. Better not to discover this the hard way by broadcasting our presence. But in Star Trek, most aliens are friendly and just trying to mind their own business ... not necessarily what evolution tends to shape species to do for survival. Of course, Star trek isn't exactly realistic even for human interactions.

Post by **Paul_Schatzkin** » Mon May 01, 2023 9:34 pm

... and they is us.

I have finally had a chance to go through The Phenomenon from begining to end (though not all in one sitting) to see what I might have missed skipping through it the first time ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0Kr1TwKhQk ).

The part that gets my attention is around the 53-54 minute mark: Various reports of UFO's hovering around nuclear arsenals that culminate with somebody posing The Visitors' rhetorical question,

What are you people doing with nuclear weapons?

If I was a space alien, that's probably what I'd be wondering, too,

That segment reminds me of the premise of the Star Trek movie First Contact released in 1996: The crew of the Enterprise (Picard edition) follows The Borg back in time to the year 2063, when a mad scientist named Zefram Cochrane (Jamie Cromwell) is about to test the first Warp Drive. The Borg wants to stop that from happening, because figuring out Warp Drive will send a signal to the rest of the galaxy that humans are ready to take their place in the cosmos. The Borg doesn't want the humans forming any intergalactic alliances.

This might be a stretch, but hearing that guy ask "What are you people doing with nuclear weapons?" makes me wonder if the 'signal' imagined in that Star Trek movie wasn't sent out on July 16, 1945 – from a deserted litttle place in New Mexico called "Alamagordo."

I imagine the Superior Forces in the galaxy detecting whatever eletromagnetic pulse rippled through the galaxy that day and thinking "Jeezus, look what the apes have got their hands on now!"

And then I think that maybe the supposition is not so absurd – because of something I read in the New York Times recently:

What Happened to All of Science’s Big Breakthroughs?

A new study finds a steady drop since 1945 in disruptive feats as a share of the world’s booming enterprise in scientific and technological advancement.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/scie ... ption.html

Since 1945? Ya don't say...!? What happened to all the Big Breakthroughs?

I got two words for you: Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Let's review: We start detonating A-bombs in 1945. Visitors show up to find out whathefuck, and... well, that's enough of that! No more scientific breakthroughs for you, Polanski!

The Phenomenon movie makes a pretty compelling argument – but, of course it does, that's why they made the movie. It's not like they're going to go to all that effort, find all that evidence, track down all those witnesess, compile all those anecdotes and land on "nope, nothing to see here."

I'm not sure what to make of the 'Dark Forest' theorem. Clearly, we have announced our presence. They have assessed our capabilities. And they have not wiped us out (yet?). So maybe the visitors are more patient than they are paranoid.

It seems all they've done is prevent us from doing any more harm to ourselves – or the galaxy – than we've already figure out how to do.

So: nothing for you today, Polanski.*

And for starters, no nuclear fusion or gravity control.

--PS

*That's one of the more memorable lines from an episode of 'Barney Miller' that I worked on in the 1970s:
https://amz.run/6eIx

Post by **Richard Hull** » Mon May 01, 2023 11:06 pm

No fusion for us? We have had it since the first H bomb back in the early 50's. The earth is now littered with thousand of fusion energy systems just itchin' to be set off over your favorite city. The aliens didn't prevent that! They didn't give it to us either. No! We got fusion! We've had fusion for years and we know how to use it.

If anything, the aliens are not letting us control it for the common good! They are keeping that secret away from us. Far too universally stabilizing for our society that likes to go to war over energy resources. Why? We are far too much fun to just sit back and watch like some TV serial. They are transfixed by our caprice. I'll bet they really started a lot of watching after the 20 kiloton drops on Japan. They figured it would all be over soon. But no, the second season aired in the early 50's with the 20 megaton devices using fusion. Surely this would be the last season of "The Earth Show". The third season opened with political and military one-upmanship with MADD resulting in a stagnation of those megaton exchanges the audience was waiting for.

Now they are monkeying with the actors in the drama, the military. Fliting about military aircraft, nuke bases and interrupting war games in a manner that the government can't really coverup.

If the aliens gave us anything it was the seed of life on earth. They do not help us in any way technologically, nor have they ever. Oh they might take a few of us from time to time and monkey with our DNA to see what the future brings provided enough of their interactive episodes yield in the way of adventure in their little screw with the species program.

They are amused by us as they may never have had, or have evolved out of the need or desire for totally independent singular action by the individual in that the concept of sudden love or hatred driving one to help, aid, build, kill, destroy with malice at a moments notice is our fate. It is our caprice and individualism that keeps 'em coming back for more.

Richard Hull

Bob Reite · Post by **Bob Reite** » Tue May 02, 2023 1:03 am

A big drop in breakthroughs since 1945. I don't think so. The transistor was not invented until 1947. That was a major change. Then the laser in 1960. While I don't consider the laser as much of a game changer as the transistor it is still a pretty significant inventon.

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Tue May 02, 2023 5:47 am

Well, like all speculations, the idea that UFO sightings are space aliens has no real proof or even believable evidence; however, like people saying the Moon landings are fake, such ideas are possible just not something I'd waste my time on arguing. Not saying impossible. Certainly, faster than light speed can be done so it is possible for such beings to come here, I guess. General Relativity allows FTL but not sure the energy costs make it possible for any species that can't create large amounts of antimatter (as in kilograms.)

As for controlled Fusion producing net energy, I am fairly confident it can be done and in a time frame more like twenty years. Now the realistic aspect - it will be net energy (not giga-watts) only and far away too expensive to be useful at all. Thirty billion plus (2023 dollars) for a proto-type unit that can maybe create a little more than an order of magnitude more energy than it uses. If built, such a unit would be so radioactive that no one would want to get near the device not long after it started running. Bottom-line, the Stellarator concepts works for holding a reactor level plasma so that device could do real fusion energy but not something anyone would want to pay for.

As for the Dark Forest, well, again - uses concepts of real evolution, mix in current human actions and then a lot of speculation. Then that concept is believable but hardly a theory that I'd worry about. If true, really nothing we could do to save ourselves anyway so just not gonna sweat it.

As for negative gravity - highly unlikely It is possible. I do, however, believe that such a physical effect of 'space' is possible. It does have a possible theoretical bases (maybe I'll speak on that concept at the next HEAS.) The bad part is I don't have the foggiest on how it could be achieved only what conditions would produce it.

As for the falloff of major scientific theoretical breakthroughs on how the Universe really works it is true that this progress has stagnated for sure. But our innate nature is still the exact same as our ancestors from 100 k years ago so none too surprising that we have hit brick wall - for now, at least (I'd blame Field Theory but that does offer a possible 'Way forward'.)

Much as the Zebra 'Cop' in the Far Side Cartoon where it is seen to say to the herd, as a few Lions devoured their kill of a fellow Zebra, "Nothing new here to see - move along."

Post by **Richard Hull** » Tue May 02, 2023 5:03 pm

Bob, I was about to note the transistor and all resultant chips, microchips, microcontrollers, etc as a fruit that has only the transistor as its major quantum theory based progenitor. That was a big deal. Its net result is size reduction coupled with massive, almost incomprehensible electronic density per unit volume. This results mostly in vast computational power and control capability in near microscopic volumes.

However nothing touches the discovery of radiation, x-rays, and the electron all within 5 years 1895-1900. Its fruits rained down from 1900 to 1940 during a period that changed the entire breadth of most sciences.

Relativity was just a series of new concepts with application only in those rare instances where common Newtonian mechanics slips and slides.
Quantum theory only developed from the radiation discovery as the NEW ATOM was explored 1900-1940. Only fine touches added over the last 80 years.

Richard Hull

Dennis P Brown · Post by **Dennis P Brown** » Wed May 03, 2023 1:11 pm

Of course - this being a fusor site - we skipped the greatest development of the sciences for the later part of the 20th centaury: the ability to control, and modify DNA (and RNA) to order via CRISPR. An amazing process that enables knock out and direct editing of the very code of these molecules of life. Also, our ability to exploit designer viruses for these purposes as well. This has absolutely revolutionized our understand of all aspects of cellular function as well as achieved major breakthroughs in healthcare.

This advancement has been the equivalent of, at the least, what the transistor did for EE.

Certainly, any Aliens would be surprised by our 'quantum jump' in Biological understanding of cells and DNA/RNA over these last thirty years - that is, if any are watching.

Aside: yes, there are dangers and down sides. That is true of all 'advancements' by humans. From the proto-humans developing the first cutting tools and later, fire to their descendants creating thermo-nuclear bombs, ICBMs and all manner of amazing methods to end our species reign over the Earth. As I mentioned previously, nothing to see here.