"Electric Fusion Systems"

This forum is for other possible methods for fusion such as Sonolumenescense, Cold Fusion, CANR/LENR or accelerator fusion. It should contain all theory, discussions and even construction and URLs related to "other than fusor, fusion".
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Paul_Schatzkin
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"Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

A new one just showed up in my junk mail:

https://electricfusionsystems.com/fusion-technology/
EFS was founded in 2020 by Ken E. Kopp and Ryan S. Wood to advance a breakthrough approach to safe, cost-effective nuclear fusion power with the lowest cost of energy in a small and scalable way with a clean environmental profile. With our patent pending approaches EFS is poised to deliver a transformational energy source capable of supporting the planet for centuries. EFS is based in Colorado and is using our proprietary science insights and engineering to deliver a global transformation for all humanity.
I suspect Ryan S. Wood added me to a mailing list, which is why it showed up in the 'junk' folder.

I know Ryan from 'The Before Times' of the Townsend Brown Project, 2003-2008. He and his father were UFO investigators, and in... 2006?... I spoke at his 'UFO Retrieval Conference' in Las Vegas.

Click the link for a FAQ about the company and its technology. I think this is the money quote:
EFS has the problem solved; aneutronic nuclear fusion with lithium + proton = helium + energy converted directly to useable electricity. EFS is pioneering this revolutionary clean energy technology, using a novel nuclear fusion physics that does not emit dangerous radiation. The founders have found an easier and safer way to generate fusion chain reactions. First, we do not try and contain the sun in a huge nuclear reactor, we use a cyclical process that dances into and out of fusion in a dense plasma with electrical arcing, coulomb explosions, with magnetic induction field and pressure confinement. Think of it as an electrical arc, passing through a dense plasma fuel, with pressure confinement. In short, a fusion plasma transformer. One of the keys is our unique lithium ammonia noble gas fuel that creates a super dense plasma much denser than historically failed approaches.
Well.

I guess the millennium has arrived, and our work is done here...

🤪

--PS
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

The wind blew and s--t flew and that is how these folks roll. Long on talk, no data, no proof it works at any level. Why? Because it is a proprietary technology. (Their equivalent obfuscation to government's, "its a matter of national security") Such fusion startups are new form of million dollar plus "go fund me" setups by tapping into the fusion hype currently buzzing about the internet, seeing other startups are already in the millions.

These guys are late to the trough. All they have is a flashy website with some grammatical errors. Considering most folks knowledge, they serve up a delicious smorgasbord of lengthy, well crafted word salads filled to overflowing with sci-jargon that would impress any investor with more money than brains.

Should they land an investor, they will move out of their combined garages and spend the first half-million on a large steel shell building and try and stuff it full of impressive kit. Gotta' have that to suck in other investors. (garage operations don't cut it) Just like NIF and ITER, you build your monstrous office building and outfit a public greeting center and pour a giant concrete slab for the reactor first. Doing this using the first 500 million. You must have a show place filled with many floors of scientists, engineers, designers to create a "make busy" environment with all the trappings of important work being done.

The startups are just lucky to fund a single impressive aircraft hangar size steel building with walled in offices for the few full time people until more money comes in. I am sure the bigger startups have their offices in rented space in some strip mall to appear big. Here, they have meetings with investors to whom they sing the sweet song from 10 to noon. The "marks" are then taken to lunch. After lunch they are escorted to the reactor building after filling their bellies, walking about belching and being impressed at how far along "they" are.

These new guys only have some hand wound coils on a stick with some well placed ball valves to show on a glitzy website.

Their fusion, like all the startups, is the fusion of the future and most certainly never will be.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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But Wait! There's More!!

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

I neglected to include a link to the 'interview' with EFS principal Ryan Wood that was also in the email I got this morning:

https://electricfusionsystems.com/press ... rnational/

I'm sure that will answer all your questions and erase all your doubts.

I'm gonna go down to my basement now and figure out where their miracle machine will go.

--P
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Frank Sanns »

The part that I can't just not understand is the ignorance of people. I mean, the fusion guys sell the Brooklyn Bridge over and over again for big dollars. I am not singling out this particular startup but rather spreading over all that are out there now and have come before.

I MAY understand that the general public and those with cash to burn but what of the scientists? Government grants?

How many billions and billions of dollars have been spent on ideas that have exactly a zero chance of success and that is even giving them quantum uncertainty odds. I mean and electron has a non zero chance of being found inside of the nucleus of an atom. But the chance of working even 1% is a flat zero. No probability of working.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

Paul thanks for finding this interview in your post and sharing it. Thanks go to Frank for his tirade regarding startups looking to retire on gains in the money substances rather that fusion.

Reading this interview really fixes this effort in my mind. First, it is aneutronic! No neutron counter needed to prove you are doing fusion. In fact, there is no way to prove you are actually doing fusion in the device depicted! The hold up is the war in Ukraine screwing with the worldwide supply of Xenon and Krypton. (Lame, very lame) However, the tokomak folks seem to have trouble with Tritium should they succeed. Nothing like a non-extant product in the quantities involved to do power ready fusion fusion to let you off the hook.

The device shown could be cobbled up in a garage and most likely was. I love the high end vacuum gauge attached. (Maybe it is a pressure gauge)
I have always felt that Ex-UFO buffs have a much better handle on the physics of fusion than most folks.

I am an ex-Tesla coil builder and am doing fusion and can prove it. I do it at great cost and great net energy loss. I am proud of it too. Of course I only do it for the neutrons, something the saucer people eschew in their device.

For my part, what is wrong with putting in a billion times more energy than you get out in fusion? I got a deal going with my electric utility. They are willing to sell me all the electric energy that I can pay for. I have the math to back up my economics of doing fusion. A one hour run on fusor V uses about 2000 watt-hours of energy for a total billing of 16 cents. I pour out a full 1 or 2 microwatt-hours of fusion over this period of time.

Paul, I am stunned you must descend into your basement to find space for a roller case sized power plant for you home. My home and lab is packed, but I could throw out a couple of cubic feet of old shoes in my closet for something that would take me off-grid!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Kenneth Kopp »

Hello, Very sorry if we came off spammy. I have found Ryan to be an amazing partner. Together we are pushing the "Light Element Electric Fusion" discovery ahead. Our reactor design is fairly simple approach. The simplicity is allowed by the fuel discovery. Lithium proton fusion in condensed Rydberg matter. Electric Fusion System's LEEF is new and very real... in fact... I'll bet there will be DIY LEEF reactors discussions on this very board.
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

Welcome, Kenneth (and Ryan) and thanks for stepping up.

As others have expressed, all we have to go on so far is words-on-screens (and, OK, a couple of photos of a something).

It's going to take more than that to persuade the jaded skeptics in these parts.

A LOT more.

Eagerly awaiting actual.... what's the word? Oh yeah.... evidence.

--P
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

Yes, as Paul, Frank and I note. The folks here are always open to making stuff and we have heard it all for years related to fusion break throughs. Break throughs that have yielded nothing. Startups that have burst onto the scene and folded up leaving investors bereft of their cash. Please excuse our skepticism.

Heck, No less than Lockheed skunk works made bold claims 5 years ago about fusion power demo reactor in 2 years, then. No telling how many millions have been spent on their many revision reactors. Just crickets chirping in the night air so far. They have assembled reactor after reactor since 2010 and nothing. Their idea is putt-putt boat fusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_ ... on_Reactor

We understand Q and how to figure it accurately based on the realities of power in vs power out. In the engineering biz it is referred to a COP, Coefficient Of Performance.

We eagerly await the full explanation of the system with top grade engineering figures related to your device Q as is used in the fusion biz. I don't mean the false and lying Q reported by the NIF and DOE recently in their big "wool-pull" over the eyes of the public claiming an over unity Q of 1.5 when actually it was a vastly lower Q of 0.01. That don't feed th' bull dog.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Patrick Lindecker »

Hello Kennet,

Congratulations to propose something new.
I read all the documents available about your system which would be a revolution if it would work. However, I have a big doubt.
Your fuel has a very high density fuel compared to the fuel density used inside Tokamaks, without being ultra-dense matter. You don't use a laser as with ultra-dense deuterium. Instead, you use an electric arc which reaches a temperature of 10,000 °K (about 1eV). Even if all the heat is used for fusion, the fusion cross-section for p-Li6 is extremely weak, not to say nil at 1 eV. Where is the trick?

Patrick Lindecker
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

There is always a "trick" in such fusion ideas and scenarios. The trick is played out on the investors, of course.

The worst enemy of such tricksters is someone with intimate knowledge of the physics involved stepping forward to point out that he emperor has no clothes.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Line Up The Lemmings...

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

Richard Hull wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:23 pm The wind blew and s--t flew and that is how these folks roll... Their fusion, like all the startups, is the fusion of the future and most certainly never will be.
I'll be talking with Ryan Wood, one of the principals at EFS today (we go back to the 'aughts when I spoke about TTBrown at his UFO Crash Retrieval conference in Las Vegas in... I think... 2006).

So I'm poking around the Interwebs, looking at EFS and trying to discern the science behind 'Rydberg atoms'. Either because I'm a glutton for punishment or I just need to spend a couple hours every week swimming in waters waaaay over my head.

Amid my various point-and-clicks, I found this item from Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmaho ... cial-says/

Money quote:
“As the technology continues to mature, there will be a point where private investors feel that they must be invested in fusion, and I feel like we’re starting to reach that inflection point,” Scott Hsu said Thursday in a webinar hosted by the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine.
So, yeah, it looks like the ground is being softened with an imprimatur of veracity to get more lemming$ lined up to keep the future of the future adequately funded.

What did Everett Dickson (Google him) say? "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking real money." Except now it's trillions.

--PS
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"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Eyes, Meet Wool:

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

The above linked article goes hand-in-glove with this one:

https://sifted.eu/articles/renaissance- ... e-nuclear/

The money quote (literally?) in this one:
Nuclear fusion [has] seen a big breakthrough recently: in December last year, US researchers announced they’d created a fusion reaction that produced more energy than it took to make for the first time.
That, lest there be any doubt why the big noise about the DOE/NIF event last year.

Maybe I should have put these last two posts in that thread, but this one is still active.

--P
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Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

You get folks with lots of recent "new cash" interested in making much more, "real soon now", and "they will come"!

These are the "never bitten", "never shy" Nouveau riche. Throw out enough hype amid a fresh crowd of monied idiots and "they will come"....

Fusion is as far off as ever. There is nothing new, fundamentally new, in the fusion biz other than announcements which have spurred new hope.

With all the new ideas,....let them have at it. They are in good company of all that preceded them and failed. Hope will always cost cash money in the fusion biz. Fusion is the biggest biz there is.

As always like, "the gold rush", it's the ones who leaped in first who will walk away, leaving the field with all the money after failing to do fusion. Now that the rush is on, you will have far less polished and more speculative sideshows on the midway to try and drag in the stragglers with money.

This is no brass ring to grab. This is the golden fleece! (in more ways than one!) This is the future of all mankind! "Buddy, can you spare a dime."

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Like a dog after a strip of bacon, can't resist commenting on the NIF results and fusion progress in general ... ;) .

the NIF result. First, the major issues with their work - after years of lies and really stupid claims using the wrong wavelength laser, wrong illumination methodology, and heinously expensive target design (est. are +$25,000 and three months to make just one) they did discover an interesting issue in this type of fusion. While it certainly isn't ignition nor even close to break-even (far from it) they did managed to demonstrate that above a certain energy level by a driver laser, fusion rates are non-linear in a good way.

This result certainly gives hope for inertia fusion using the proper laser(i.e. the super efficient and powerful ArF excimer laser) that would then be used for direct drive implosion of a D-T iced pellet (these types of targets are even now routinely made, are simple in structure and very inexpensive ($0.25 each). As such, they would be easy to mass produce.) However, the technological issues for scale up are staggering. The neutron wall threat, unlike a tokamak, are rather easy to handle.

The German Wendelstein 7-X stellarator is a major advanced in magnetic fusion development (but they produce near zero fusion energy - on purpose.) Looks likely they will hold a power plant level plasma at 'fusion' level temps for thirty minutes without instabilities developing; that goal will be attempted over the few years. They hold the all time record (by far) for such a stable and ultra dense plasma - currently just over a minute. The time length of 30 minutes is their design goal but is arbitrary; not really based on any technological issues. The real capability would be as long as they desire to continue pumping energy into the plasma and cool the walls. The machine is innately stable unlike tokamaks.

They have recently finished that upgrade and will likely start slow testing of that addition for some time - see https://www.ipp.mpg.de/17019/meilensteine

This current stellarator system will demonstrate that a power plant level plasma at the required temperature is not just possible but unlike the ITER disaster in the making, very possible; however, magnetic fusion just isn't viable in a practicable sense, regardless.

The reason is that the neutron threat issue likely makes a real fusion stellarator power reactor totally unlikely with current technological knowledge for shielding. Besides the likely staggering cost (at least the $30 billion dollar range - 2010 dollars) even for a 'small' demo plant (about 6x the current stellarator volume) that creates far more energy then it consumes, the radiation issue is extremely bad. Any such test bed reactor burning D-T would need to be buried under concreate and abandon after about a year of operation due to the massive neutrons/radiation contamination. Just don't see that ever being viable until that issue can be addressed in a believable manner.
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

Power is power. 0.1 watt-hour of unshielded fusion fast neutrons and you are dead! A real reactor that does a rather worthless 20 megawatts of fusion power is just a neutron nightmare. That lithium 6 blanket making T is still a pipe dream and loaded with engineering issues in extraction.

Fusion energy on the grid is many, many years and Trillions of dollars distant, save for a lucky donkey or the aliens giving it to us. Fat chance!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Kenneth Kopp »

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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Oh no! A new buzz word that makes fusion so easy we will not bother to meter electricity very soon - all thanks to Rydberg matter!

Scanned this aspect of their work at their web page and looked up what Rydberg matter is and frankly, not impressed.
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by JoeBallantyne »

Lots of work on the website. But still after 3 years since the founding just a picture or 2 of what appears to be prototype #1.

Any further actual hardware built, or in progress? Solving what problems?

Pretty websites don't make fusion. They raise money.

Here we care about actual fusion. Preferably fusion that can be measured scientifically by detecting fusion byproducts. Which your scheme, as far as I can tell, conveniently doesn't allow.

Seems to me that task #1, given you have a prototype, is to scientifically and provably measure how much actual fusion your system is doing. Until you can do that, this is nothing more than a pretty website, chock full of word salad mumbo jumbo, trying to raise money to enrich the founders... IMO.

Joe.
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Microsoft / Helion

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

This is slightly off topic, but in light of the recurring theme here does not warrant a separate thread:

"Microsoft makes its first nuclear-fusion deal"

https://bityl.co/Ig6z

Link provided without any further comment.
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"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

Went there. Read that. Will comment.
Once I stopped laughing, I realized Microsoft will not be out a penny buying power from Helion as there will be no power to buy. I just hope Gates isn't giving one dime to actually build the thing. They have 5 years to be able to crap a few megawatts of true electrical energy his way. Such a stupid announcement to buy energy based on zero fusion in 2023. I love fusion time frames. They come and they go. Shades of Lockheed here. Their boast has come and gone a couple of times already.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by JoeBallantyne »

Actually, if Helion fails to provide the agreed upon fusion power, they technically will be required to pay penalties for failing to deliver, to Microsoft.

So for Microsoft it's win win. If Helion succeeds, Microsoft is the first in the world to have purchased and used fusion power, and if they fail, Microsoft gets paid.

Although I'm sure Helion will try and weasel out of paying anything, and Microsoft will let them. Too much at stake with the OpenAI stuff to piss that founder off by making Helion pay up. (The OpenAI founder is one of the main funding sources for Helion, which is why this deal happened in the first place.)

Its all about looking good in the press right now. Which this announcement accomplishes very nicely for both companies.

Joe.
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

Joe, thanks for the full understanding related to "image". Oddly, I was thinking of fusion. You are probably right. If no energy on the promised date, well.... To err is human to forgive is Devine.. Or in the new jargon... To fail in a promise and not have to pay is a glorious image to all concerned.
Now, will an epic fail even make the news?

A great non-marketing ploy with possibility of saving not only face, but money, as well.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Worked for NIF and a billion dollars provided by the U.S. taxpayer. Though, at least they have finally, managed to discover something useful. More by accident than design but a discovery is still a discovery no matter the intent.
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Richard Hull »

NIF has done more for strategic stockpile stewardship than fusion. They produced no "net" Q over unity. Failed at power production of net fusion energy.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: "Electric Fusion Systems"

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

Yeah, and that 'breakthrough' was right in line with 'stockpile stewardship'

From my (admittedly biased and ill-informed) perspective, that "breakthrough" was not so much a "controlled fusion" process as it was a miniature hydrogen bomb using lasers as the trigger instead of fission.

And about equally as useful in the long run. But, hey, it got people talking about fu$ion!

--PS
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