A theory of a possible method of fusion

It may be difficult to separate "theory" from "application," but let''s see if this helps facilitate the discussion.
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frostyk72
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A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by frostyk72 »

Fusion idea 15th October 2016

Plasma appears to spin around magnets on field lines
In theory this array of magnetic fields might have plasma spinning
opposing direction to next magnet And Might over lap plasma lines
and maybe increase chance of fusion.

\/ shaped sphere of magnets.
North Pole of magnet +
South Pole of magnet -
magnet \ and /

+\- -/+ +\- -/+ +\- -/++\--/+

Same field of magnet facing next one.
Welded in place by a small rod between in centre
in a curve to make a sphere
John Futter
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by John Futter »

How about reading the forum rules
real full name
I know you joined a few years ago but the rules have changed
please ammend


not following these simple rules puts you in troll territory
frostyk72
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by frostyk72 »

updated my profile and put my real name in.
is Steven Whittam
steventw
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

sorry had been awhile since logged in, logged in with old account.
anyway relised had account with my name in it and recovered password.
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

made a small picture in paint with a possible tokamak configuration,
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fusion idea.jpg
Charles Snyder
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Charles Snyder »

Is this experiment similar to your idea?

https://www-internal.psfc.mit.edu/ldx/
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by KalebWagar »

Steven -

I like your configuration, but I don't think you've modeled the fields correctly. If you were to use the electromagnet configuration that you posted, you'll get behavior more akin to what I've posted in the attachment. (Go Paint!)

Because the magnets are layered in opposites, you've essentially created layers of plasma that interfere with each others' flow and cause collisions. This COULD lead to more fusion, but if the collisions aren't high enough in energy, not enough will fuse to make it worth the energy.

Note in my rough sketch that I also pointed out some low energy plasma points. The distance from the magnets and the interference from the wall serves to 'slow down' the plasma. The inner tube, inside the coils, is basically just a mess of opposite, linear, homogeneous magnetic fields that trap and squeeze the little plasma that enters into messy, low energy knots.
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steventw
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Charles Snyder wrote:Is this experiment similar to your idea?

https://www-internal.psfc.mit.edu/ldx/

Had a brief look
Doesn't appear to be from what I read
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

second attempt at paint shopping idea.

a possible fusor type configuration for testing idea.
would just take some fancy grid work to make it work.
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fusion idea2.jpg
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

made a more simpler idea so easier to understand.
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Richard Hull
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Richard Hull »

Steve, Did you ever think of actually doing any hands-on experiments with your ideas. I think the reason no one has commented much on this is that all sorts of magnetic fusion schemes have been tried for the last 70 years by folks a lot smarter than us and, thus far. all of those ideas have produced a glorious and multi-billion dollar zero power fusion result. I would forget magnetics in the area of fusion. Nice to think about, but with no real hands-on effort, all ideas remain pie-in-the-sky.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
steventw
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Because I'm on a pension and after paying rent and bills and food I have no cash left over
And would be fairly simple to test for someone with a fusor already to test only need 2 perm Magnets

I've tryed to get a small vacuum chamber built but never pans out
And family won't help even tho they could easily help
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Richard Hull
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Richard Hull »

Sorry about your situation, but getting a small glass chamber maybe not even a demo fusor will allow a lot of simple magnetic experiments with plasma to be performed. Magnetics just isn't a path to fusion, though the big boys continue to spend the billions on it. It sure looks impressive I will say that, even in the small. But, looks can be deceiving, as we all know.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
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Bob Reite
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Bob Reite »

Somebody likened containing plasma with a magnetic field to trying to hold Jello with rubber bands.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Richard Hull
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Richard Hull »

Nice analogy!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
steventw
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Got some money saved and will be building a simple version of a newer better design in a few weeks when back from holiday with parents
Will start build in about a month :)

Been doing a bit of research of costs
The bit that getting me is the plasma creation that’s simple to suit the design
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Remember, there are inexpensive methods to obtain vacuum pumps; besides getting high end pumps dirt cheap on ebay from time to time (I got two high end, two stage vacuum pumps in perfect working order for $10 each; they pull under two microns and handle huge loads. Shipping cost much more.) One can convert old refrigerator compressors in-order to create a plasma level vacuum. One can get these free by checking for junk thrown away. An old microwave unit may have a usable transformer and diodes (but remember, those x-formers are lethal and all wiring must handle that voltage.)

I encased an old microwave x-former and used it (in a cap based voltage multiplier stack) to create a 100 kV unit. It worked far too well and I abandoned it; far too dangerous.
steventw
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Well I know a friend of a friend has 2 stripped down magnetrons from microwaves
Would do for proof of concept I guess

A vacuum chamber big enough is hard part and pricey
I have seen a 16gallon vacuum chamber and 2 stage pump for 960 aus

Not sure on what sorta power supply to get
Was thinking of just usen 2 copper wires and dc power to get hydrogen plasma started
Just a small amount and nothin to dangours like a magnetron might be

Just thinking of going small for proof of concept
Prob gona cost about 1500 - 2000 au
Then ramp upto a prototype
Have a mate that interested in investing in prototype if concept gos well
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

You say
"2 stripped down magnetrons "


One does NOT use magnetrons for plasma excitation due to the danger. Any attempt is most likely to be fatal. Electrically sealing any such chamber properly is not something anyone is likely to succeed at and failure means exposure to a deadly level of microwave energy. That is not something you should consider nor attempt - using electrical excitation or RF is the only method that can be done in a safe manner.
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Michael Bretti »

Magnetrons can be exceptionally dangerous devices, and should not be taken lightly by the inexperienced. However, (as purely a scientific example and not an endorsement to do this yourself), it is certainly very possible to excite plasmas with a magnetron, and indeed magnetrons at this range are often used for high frequency rf plasma excitation. This can be accomplished through several means - direct coupling into a chamber through a waveguide, often through a microwave transparent alumina window, or a safer alternative of using a waveguide to coaxial transition. If using a sealed fully stainless chamber where rf cannot leak, it is quite possible with minimal risk of rf exposure. However this is only with a properly designed and well engineered system. Magnetron power can also be modulated to an extent, and I have even modified a old thyratron pulser to drive microwave oven magnetrons in a pulsed mode for short bursts of rf.

All this being said, it is still very dangerous for someone with no high power rf experience. I work at an accelerator facility so a magnetron at this level is rather trivial, but most people do not have training to use these devices for plasma excitation uses, and is still very dangerous regardless of any experience level. Not to mention you would require a circulator, stub tuner, and probably an absorbing water load at the outlet of the excitation region to absorb any leftover radiation. I also have numerous papers on the use of these magnetrons for direct excitation of atmospheric microwave plasma torches, where the plasma itself absorbs nearly all the rf from the magnetron. However, the system still needs to be well engineered and precisely matched to avoid losses. Unless you work professionally in the high power rf field, I would strongly advise against such endeavors. The info I provided above is for the sake of example of what is done in the laboratory setting, and in no means of any encouragement to pursue it oneself.

I did have the opportunity to mentor several senior capstone teams for a project using a magnetron for open-air heating applications with rf susceptors, but this was under strict supervision with significant laboratory safety requirements. Again, not something to pursue without the strictest safety requirements in place.

A much safer way of rf excitation if you wanted to pursue this route would be to use a triode tube oscillator. It takes very little power, and plasmas can be sustained at only 100W, not a kw that the magnetron outputs. Also the much lower frequency (several Mhz) poses much less risk, especially to the eyes which are highly efficient absorbers at 2.45Ghz.

As Dennis P. Brown suggests above, it is better and safer to stick with dc or low level rf excitation. Magnetrons pose too many unseen risks, and the damage will be done before you know it has even happened.
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Richard Hull »

We humans are big bags of water.... we are water logged meat engines. The micro wave oven frequency was tuned for cooking wet meat and other water loaded food substances. Our bodies like to fully absorb 2.45 Ghz RF energy and fast neutrons. Your health, your choce!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
steventw
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Guess I’ll stick with the 2 copper wires
Thanks for advice
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Just in case missed post in contsrructor thread

Ok my idea that I’ve worked with I’ve simplified a little
For proof of concept I’ll be using 2 rows of magnets
Roughly 10 each side with like poles facing centre so that there pushin away
From what I’ve seen in vids on YouTube is plasma spinning around magnets so idea is to give it a run up or hopefully sling shot around as it moves down row of magnets toward centre
Videos I looked at for magnets plasma that came up in YouTube search
https://youtu.be/2B-lKgcQJvg
And https://youtu.be/uPU9cEK5YsM

If magnets rows fixed down and are facing the like poles / repelling Poles
Plasma spinning from one row would be spinning opposite direction to other row and hopefully meet somewhere in middle
FA764497-C969-4E0D-88D7-31C54A0BC79D.jpeg
FA764497-C969-4E0D-88D7-31C54A0BC79D.jpeg (35.64 KiB) Viewed 15362 times
If plasma gets a speed boost from spinning around magents on lead up
Might lower power requirements for fusion


If all works as theorised when build proof will upgrade proof to a prototype with rows on all 6 sides of square
8F148BFD-456E-4F4B-9560-F9C5CAEEF944.jpeg
8F148BFD-456E-4F4B-9560-F9C5CAEEF944.jpeg (33.57 KiB) Viewed 15362 times


From Steven Whittam
steventw
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Well built my idea

Finished off today
Gona give it a test run with some argon cause have in hand at work
2AC0221D-3F1B-4CF2-85C3-1654D50B295E.jpeg
Today put the 4 copper grids 2 at base of each row to create plasma
Will try get a vid of it running later on
steventw
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Don’t think power supply I got was not sufficient enough for creating plasma with method using

Any suggestions as to what I could get that would be sufficient
Or maybe an easier way to create the plasma

Open to suggestions
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Rather difficult to make any suggestions what-so-ever when the only picture you show for the experiment is an open box held together with plastic straps.

Making a plasma is trivial if one uses a vacuum (say 50 milli-torr) and a few hundred volts even at a a few milli-amps.

If you are trying to create a plasma in air, you will need a very high voltage and the ability to 'strike' an arc. Look at the "Jacob's Ladder" demo's on youtube.
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

It’s an aluminium frame with bolts holding magnets
Ignore the zip ties they where prepairing to hold the copper wires

My
Older bro recommended usen one of the tig welders at work as a power supply
Got vacuum down to -25psi and added some argon gas
Tho only had some wires a few mm appart to test if could get an arch which it did.

Will be installing the copper grids hopefully tomorrow in hope to get some plasma flowing
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

OK; while the old negative pressure is still used on some ancient dial gauges or maybe AC units, might want to use positive readings; also, not inches. Maybe just convert to torr or pascal. That will mean more to others here.
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

Got a digital scale since then 2 in fact
One for pipe on pump and one for top of chamber

Made some bowl magnets
But got issues with leaks again
Took off diffusion pump and connected chamber directly to pump
Got similar pressures to with diffusion pump
But best I think was with about 150 micron on pump and about 190 on chamber , tho outa diffusion pump oil

I’ll throw some pics
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Experiment
Experiment
Experiment
Experiment
Experiment. Pics at about 200 on chamber
Experiment. Pics at about 200 on chamber
Experiment. Pics at about 200 on chamber
Experiment. Pics at about 200 on chamber
Micron on pump
Micron on pump
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Rich Feldman
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by Rich Feldman »

Steve's back! Applause for plasma pictures.

A picture or description of whole vacuum apparatus could facilitate getting useful advice about reducing the pressure.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Re: A theory of a possible method of fusion

Post by steventw »

I know where leak is
Just getting right attachment for chamber to diffusion pump

64mm tri clamp to kf50
Hard to get seal right give slight diff o-rings
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