My fusion setup

Current images of fusor efforts, components, etc. Try to continuously update from your name, a current photo using edit function. Title post with your name once only. Change image and text as needed. See first posting for details.
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steventw
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My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Finally there and ready to do experiment
4E06C402-71F9-46D1-9703-4596BAB9A44E.jpeg
Looks like no leaks
Down to 150 micron on pump side
Just waiting till below low enough to turn on diff pump
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Richard Hull
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Richard Hull »

You are off to an interesting start. I fusion is your goal, the chamber is rather large and will require a significant amount of very expensive deuterium. I assume that top is plastic. If it is, you will never really pump that down to fusion pressures and the heat from electron/ion beams hitting the plastic will cause it to outgas horribly.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Well looking into a new chamber
If parents lend me cash gona have one built
Design
Design
What you think Richard?
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Richard Hull
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Richard Hull »

I think way too big! 35cm!! 20 cm is way too large. Why re-invent the wheel with a rectangular chamber. The fusor fuel is deuterium and it is very expensive. we do fusion by leaking in deuterium against a pump thus the deuterium is fed to the chamber and then pump on thru out the vacuum pump system into the outside world. We are throwing it away while doing fusion. The reason for this "differential pumping" is too complex to explain in a paragraph but it is what is demanded for continuous fusion operation.

The bigger the chamber the more deuterium is wasted by "pump through". Try and use stock vacuum ready gear as it is made to seal properly in vacuum work. 15 cm chamber diameter is about right this can be in the form of a cylinder, sphere or vacuum rated cross. Stay clear of sharp angles in the system, like rectangles and square metal areas, they mess with the electrostatic acceleration field. You would idelly like to see this field rather uniform to avoid arcing.

I hope you have read this FAQ

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=13508&p=87970#p87970

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Hi

Sorry haven’t been around for awhile.
Reason chamber so big is because of prototype of idea is about W30cm X D30cm X H10cm

Prices for getting chamber built out of aluminium where a bit to pricey.
going to try do a welding course in few weeks then advance one covers aluminium


Did have trouble with leaks and pipe work between diff pump and chamber I think was to great could only get to 360
Micron on chamber
When shut valve between chamber and diff pump
The vac pump gauge would drop to 15 micron
But 160 on pump when valve to chamber was open

Managed to find a kf50 gate valve cheap on eBay
Cost about $228 Australia for it plus postage
Is due in mail this Monday/Tuesday
Gate valve
Gate valve
Hopefully helps to shorten pipes between diff and chamber by half and straight line over s bend which prob wouldn’t of helped

I’ll try current chamber with new gate valve and look into a better chamber like round aluminium pipe if can find one the right size if can work out how to mod it.
Will let you know how I things go
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

That doesn't look like a useful gate valve. It appears to be a fully open or closed system. One requires an adjustable gate valve to be useful for control of deuterium exhaust from chamber and chamber pressure.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Rich Feldman »

Good to see vacuum measurements.
Agree with Steven's approach,
if step 1 is to achieve sufficiently low floor pressure _without_ introducing gas on purpose.
Fix the leaks.
The gate valve won't hurt, except to add connections that might leak.
Not sure how it will help, except for identifying leaks as above or below.

When deuterium time comes, suppose the gate valve can't be adapted to stop in slightly-open position.
Then conductance to pump can be reduced by adding a baffle above the gate valve.
Maybe even one that's adjustable, manipulated (say) by a magnet outside the vacuum.

As a note to other noobs, "gate valve" refers to physical configuration, not to the function of gating a pipe open or closed.
A butterfly valve or ball valve, for example, might go from wide open to vacuum tight but that doesn't make it a gate valve.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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vince_Darmancier
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by vince_Darmancier »

I recently came across this neat little hemisphere all stainless steel, very affordable and made right here in Michigan! I think its worth looking into . there is a few size to choose from and the connections are all good to go for high vacuum..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123805495234?s ... 1438.l2649
ChristofferBraestrup
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by ChristofferBraestrup »

You may be aware of this, but the flanges that look like KF40/50 flanges are NOT KF flanges- they're 'tri-clamp' flanges.
Commonly found on brewery/food apparatus. Uses a similar clamp but a wierd O-ring. Can be identified by the round groove in the sealing face. They're inch-standard, not metric like the KF series.

Getting these ports adapted to vacuum instrumentation may cost a lot of adapters or fabrication.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Got everything need For between diffusion pump and chamber
Got couple of parts in mail for sorting leaks between diffusion pump and vacuum pump
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Hey
Managed to get to about 360 micron
Here’s some pics
534A0EEA-3393-4267-9DF5-F05A527135D8.jpeg
36262AEF-E0B8-444A-8E08-72605ABBC502.jpeg
7954492D-99D4-4CD8-B6AD-D8D3321BD7E5.jpeg
05E3BB51-4181-425F-A612-ADA17CD50B6A.jpeg
DD8FBB57-2A55-448B-A0B4-501F4DFA5CEE.jpeg
7C37D485-EB6D-433E-BD32-A5155BF5759E.jpeg
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Richard Hull
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Richard Hull »

Things will get real pretty at about 20 microns and below. Much below 5 microns and all glow will go away.
Vacuum system needs a lot of attention, yet. It is either seals on the chamber leaking or the pump is weak now.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Still a small leak around seal from chamber to pipework
Got to slightly turn it right way to get to 350 micron or sits around 3000

Pump is good only takes few min to get there
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

As someone that seals feed-thru's, this is difficult work. Pictures of the external device/setup and a few close up's would be helpful if you want ideas on sealing/leak location.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

I’ll try get some pictures tomorrow
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

E86F0939-BEFD-4F6B-B322-4C631A45708D.jpeg
CD8983B5-6F6F-4B88-9B1E-82B502134026.jpeg
86DADAAE-7834-40A7-85DD-F53FC62FD5C0.jpeg
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

B47341DF-FD3D-4C31-A5E1-66016181739C.jpeg
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Richard Hull
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Richard Hull »

I just noticed that chamber has handles on it!!! Are they riveted or Welded on? Big leak with rivets, maybe. Also, what kind of gasketing are you using on the ISO fitting to the Diff pump intake. I looks like two red rubber gaskets rather than the normal aluminum run gasket demanded for those fittings. (out gassing?).

The rest of the system with proper KF fittings and proper rings seem a good top end vacuum choice.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Matt_Gibson »

That is one massive chamber! Going to need a lot of deuterium to operate, no?
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Diff pump Iso160 to kf50 adapter to dn40 chamber
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

The top cover for the chamber looks to be plexiglass; if so, under heavy electron/ion bombardment that will outgas a great deal. The coupling seal for the electrical connections looks rather questionable. A proper glass plate would be expensive but a metal one, with large enough holes for small glass plate(s) and required feed-thru's would be reasonable - cost wise. A metal cover would certainly improve your vacuum.

Also, your metal chamber does not appear very thick looking at the photo. From the picture, I assume you welded a KF adapter to the base? If so, then that should work. If not, the KF fitting on the bottom used to connect the DP isn't going to hold vacuum very well as the bottom flexes.
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Richard Hull
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Richard Hull »

That is correct, never allow plastic in a fusor chamber with an active plasma in it. It will never stop outgassing under bombardment.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

EA163137-D43B-460A-A776-567C1B27C203.jpeg
At about 4000 micron



This is what I have for connector from pipe work to chamber
I did buy a 2 weld stubs all up because chamber is thicker on bottom like twice as thick as weld stub
So when Tryed to weld the stub would desintergrate before chamber bottom was hot enough to weld to
Chamber/pipe connector
Chamber/pipe connector
Noticed have to slightly turn chamber if stops around 3000 micron then drops to 350 when get the sweet spot
Have Tryed some silicon all around etc to seal it up just waiting for it to dry


Haven’t got any spair cash at moment for new lid
But I’ll keep in mind for next thing buy for it
Just getting one with a viewport and freed through would be hard to find
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Don't buy a real vacuum grade, stainless Steel cover ($$$) - rather, get an aluminum plate (close to 1/2 inch thick) big enough to cover your chamber (it can be a square plate.) Then use a 3 inch hole saw to make access for a viewing port. Then drill quarter inch or so holes to make electrical feed-thru ports. This can be done at home with a hand drill but a drill press would be far easier/safer. Adding the glass plate using sealant would be enough to get you into the low microns or even tenths of microns with no problem.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Rich Feldman »

Looks like leftover disks of cast aluminum tooling plate are still available from the S&S Machine company in Roseville, California.
Compared to ordinary rolled AL plate stock, the MIC-6 or equivalent material is naturally flatter & has much less internal stress. So it stays flat even when substantial areas and volumes are cut away.

http://www.sandsmachine.com/alumweb.htm

Aluminum is so much stiffer than plexiglass, it's not even funny. You might find that 3/8" is plenty thick as a cover for your pot. Plenty strong for sure. Call if you want help to figure the elastic deflection under vacuum, in thousandths of an inch. How much does your plastic lid suck in, observed with respect to a straight edge?

If your vacuum problem today is from air leakage where plastic lid meets the pot,
you can find out quick by applying a little oil or grease to outside of joint while under vacuum.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Figured I should mention: Don’t be afraid to “back up and punt” during this journey. If a particular solution costs more than a new (better) chamber, it wouldn’t make sense to continue down that path. For example: great deal on a cube chamber but the chamber has weird ($$$$) flanges isn’t a great deal at all. I did my very best to stick to major components that use 2.75in conflats or kf/qf25 because eBay has a lot of options.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Problem with getting a new chamber is one that will fit the prototype and not mess with the magnetic fields
So needs to be aluminium
Looked into a custom made one from China but to pricey

My twin bro does sell aluminium pressure cookers at his business
Was thinking of asking him for a lid if he has one that fits
Or maybe smaller one if fits prototype

Am in Australia so getting a chunk of aluminium would cost a lot in postage from USA
Prob sourcing local be cheaper

Thanks for advice
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Unless you live in a remote area, finding aluminum (or is that aluminium ... ) plate shouldn't be too difficult. Scrap metal dealers might have it as well.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

silcon seemed to make it worse and harder to get below about 700 - 1000 micron
having trouble attaching pics and small video.
got pos wire on each row of magnets on one side, and neg along other, and does appear to be spinning around magnets at various points.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

The ideal manner to apply sealant (when it must be done) is to use as little as possible. However, your plexiglass cover will outgas a great deal. Also, wire being used through any sealant as its own feed-thru is very difficult to make vacuum tight (between wire and its insulation, unless bare) - epoxy might be an improvement over silicone. You are dealing with a next to impossible to seal system due to the flimsy nature of the chamber and plexiglass. So, not sure there is a solution except as we mentioned in earlier posts.
steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

F592C9D2-50AA-4D18-A85D-A773A033E337.jpeg
Had to put stuff on top to weigh it down to get better seal

271 micron managed to get
Def need new chamber this one starting to bend from better seal the pump a bit to strong
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FCC91FA7-53C4-4138-9BE9-98395C109312.jpeg
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Rich Feldman
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Rich Feldman »

Nice pictures you got there, Steven. Keep it up.

Do you think the objects on top of the lid, all together, weigh more than 1% of the force from air pressing down? I'm guessing that without them, the lid seals so poorly that the pump can't suck it down enough to close the gap. Sounds like a flatness problem with the rim, or dents in the gasket. When you put lid on pot without a gasket, does it touch on a few high places and leave room for a sheet of paper to be un-pinched at low places? How about when lid is rotated to a different angle? Where can you find a very flat reference surface bigger than your pot and lid?

I think everyone agrees that your ultimate vacuum is probably limited by leaks.
But let's re-visit other possibilities.
Your picture on Feb 13 shows a vacuum hose that's plenty short and thick
between rotary pump and diffusion pump.
How recently have you taken a reading with same vacuum gauge, on same pump, without the large chamber? Last June you cited 15 micron pressure with a valve isolating chamber from diff pump.

I will say again: your clear plastic lid invites an easy way to locate gross leaks. Clean off all grease and silicone sealant. Let's say the pressure levels off at 500 microns with the pump running, and guess that's the equilibrium with flow of air leaking past the gasket. Then if you take some pump oil and apply it on outside of joint, using an acid brush or small paint brush, you should see oil and maybe bubbles appear inside the chamber. Could do the same at the pot-handle connections, which do appear to be spot welded instead of riveted.
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steventw
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Aiming to replace chamber when can
My bro has a 40L steriliser that’s a bit more robust he willing to part with

I decided to remove the diffusion pump because the vacuum
Pump cable of getting to below 50 micron if get seals right
It’s rated to 1 Micron for the moment till get seals right

Yeah when cut off chamber and just have diff pump it can get to low pressures easily
The connection between chamber and pipe work is the main issue
Because after made hole Tryed to weld a weld stub to it
So hole isn’t the best weld stub was thinner than base of chamber so stub would melt and disintegrate before weld would happen

Yeah the handle are spot welded not riveted
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

F3DA41BC-184F-4F8C-BD6A-BE1C0156F696.jpeg
62E2CE09-3D9C-415E-8C63-14A2D2D63166.jpeg
Attempted other day
Seems to start spinning around magnets but then takes short cut through magnets

Next post will be todays attempt after electrical taped a lot of it
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

1D8BBF07-8D9C-4D99-B7E5-2C27787D9D88.jpeg
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Between the poor chamber, the massive amount of materials that appear to be non-vacuum grade and your main seal/plexiglass top, getting a lower vacuum is unlikely. Even with a better chamber and a glass window (no plexiglass!), you must use vacuum grade materials in assembly of your structures - no plastics/epoxies or any non-ceramic or non-metal material in that plasma - no other way.
Last edited by Dennis P Brown on Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Well it’s what I have to work with at the moment and what I could afford
I do have some ideas about how to work grid and how to finish it, but I don’t have the funds or contact for guy who made the bowl magnets

And at pressures and what I’ve got to looks promising, but prob need help to finish
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

We must all stay within budget! Hopefully, you don't need lower vacuum to demonstrate what you are trying to do.
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

I think it does

Plasma being made at base of magnets spinning up towards center
Got some braided copper sleeve at base of magnets and wire in middle to attract, have videos but there to big to post on forum
Plasma def spins around to center
Think needs a longer run up tho… or stronger magnets

Had to use electrical tape on all of magnets and behind cause energy going in would go through magnets and out end close to center
Instead of going around outside of
Magnets
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Richard Hull
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Richard Hull »

Nothing helps to kill a vacuum better than plasma bombardment of electrical tape. The out gassing must be tremendous. At least, it keeps the pump busy.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

hey

run into a bit of trouble with the chamber warping at top when pumping down, and warps out and starts to leak through lid, almost to point of lid might get sucked into chamber, pritty sure got most of leaks sorted and pumping down to fast for chamber to handle.
so need a new chamber,

might be a bit of time before can get things moving again.

But anyway, here's basic idea of what trying to do. just need to get a couple of these bowl magnets, any ideas.
fusion idea steven whittam.jpg
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Maybe explain what you are trying to do to go along with the drawing; I don't get what you are driving at with that design - where are voltages applied and do name the parts, as well.
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Basically purple triangles are ion source
Plasma spins around magnets if doesn’t end of going through hence electrical tape using on magnets I have

Bowl magnets the polarity flips certain distance from bowl

So if have all positive poles facing center on row of magnets and bowls, the bowls would flip and make a negative to attract pos ions.

So ion source would nudge the ion’s down magnets which should spin around upto center which would be attracted by the flipped pole from bowl magnets once close enough.
And hopefully hit the ion coming for opposite row of magnets spinning opposite directions
In theorie

I have an 8kv neon transformer which does well.
One configuration I used of wires and just 2 rows of magnets
Had a circle wire down middle of magnets similar circumference as magents
And 1 circle wire around each row of magnets about 1/4 way down from centre about same distance away from magnet as magnetic field. Not sure which was pos and which neg.
Have a picture on my computer somewhere I think

Anyway the plasma went from the 2 wires from 1/4 way down magnets all way to back then through bolt down middle of magnets to centre to centre ring.
But had it running for a little and got 2 jolts of something standing about a meter back so turned off
Was almost like could see inside myself was weird.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Instead of electrical tape, you could use fast setting ceramic paste (requires only a low temp bake.) Insulates well and is good under vacuum. Energy (which translates to "speed") of the ions in a fusor is due to the acceleration caused by the ions feeling the HV potential. Mechanical motion by a weak magnet trying to impart some tiny increase in ion speed is absolutely trivial, even compared to room temp molecules (i.e. thermal energy), much less ions in a high voltage field. The magnets are far too weak to cause any real deflection of ions used by fusors and certain not increase their velocity or interaction rate to any measurable extent. The big boys use multi-ton, super conductor magnets that create local fields measured in Tesla's - many orders of magnitude higher than simple home magnets; yet even these fields fail to hold a plasma very well.
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Got myself a new chamber thank to my twin bro
Heavy duty aluminium so Pritty thick.
Can get down to 1000 micron in 3minutes
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Matt_Gibson
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Looks like a rubber/plastic coated alligator clip (heavy duty) in there?

-Matt
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Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Yeah

The duck tape and stuff arnt effecting pressure much at all
Plasma doesn’t seem to be melting anything how it is.

Will prob try remove somethings like clip next run
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Richard Hull
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Real name: Richard Hull

Re: My fusion setup

Post by Richard Hull »

You will never pull anything like a decent vacuum with even the smallest atom of plastic polymer in a chamber under plasma bombardment. You might as well stop now unless their is nothing in the chamber except metal and gas.

Physics and material science will control what you can do and impose limits to that forever.

Then again, I have a sign over my lab door........"Experiment is what I'm doing when I don't know what I am doing"

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.
steventw
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Real name: Steven Whittam
Location: Melbourne/Australia

Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Well I know what I’m trying to achieve and where I’m aiming
But yeah is a learning curve
Thank you for advice and information I will take it on board.

I could use one of tho’s signs. Haha
I dropped out of gear 10 due to bullying
But I think Probly left me with a more open mind to come up with something different, not something someone else had taught me.

Do know quite a lot of things not common knowledge.
Like did you know seamen can live upto 14 days in the mouth if don’t brush ya teeth…
Jeremy Sims
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Real name: Jeremy Sims
Location: Southern Ohio

Re: My fusion setup

Post by Jeremy Sims »

Steven, just a suggestion, you know what you want to achieve but it looks like you may need to learn a new skill to achieve it. It looks like you have a lot of things that need to be placed in certain positions and currently you are using plastic and tape. Have you ever thought of learning to work with glass, using a burner to shape it into the forms you need to hold and position things securely?
steventw
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Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:45 am
Real name: Steven Whittam
Location: Melbourne/Australia

Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Hmm

Well the idea of ceramic coating isn’t new dad had idea few years back
Glass Probly not good for holding magnets in place
Unless had a glass ball with right pressure with hydrogen or mix of ideal fuel and 2 electrodes to sit in centre… random idea.

Ideally I would remake the square bracket that’s holding magnets and realign magents so there facing each other dead centre again. When was first made sat flush. But when had first accident with lid being sucked in, bent all outa shape
Older bro kinda fixed but not 100% accurate.

If new how to work with glass and get to pressure and the electrodes and gas maybe.
But would Probly melt if was working. So Probly need to be in vacuum chamber close to same pressure.

Ideally idea posted few posts back would be ideal in vacuum and if works as one would hope
Would just need to get going and feed now and again
steventw
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Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:45 am
Real name: Steven Whittam
Location: Melbourne/Australia

Re: My fusion setup

Post by steventw »

Picture from last night.
Got to 1000 micron in 3 minutes.
11th july. 2022
11th july. 2022
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