My fusion setup
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Re: My fusion setup
Figured I should mention: Don’t be afraid to “back up and punt” during this journey. If a particular solution costs more than a new (better) chamber, it wouldn’t make sense to continue down that path. For example: great deal on a cube chamber but the chamber has weird ($$$$) flanges isn’t a great deal at all. I did my very best to stick to major components that use 2.75in conflats or kf/qf25 because eBay has a lot of options.
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- Real name: Steven Whittam
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Re: My fusion setup
Problem with getting a new chamber is one that will fit the prototype and not mess with the magnetic fields
So needs to be aluminium
Looked into a custom made one from China but to pricey
My twin bro does sell aluminium pressure cookers at his business
Was thinking of asking him for a lid if he has one that fits
Or maybe smaller one if fits prototype
Am in Australia so getting a chunk of aluminium would cost a lot in postage from USA
Prob sourcing local be cheaper
Thanks for advice
So needs to be aluminium
Looked into a custom made one from China but to pricey
My twin bro does sell aluminium pressure cookers at his business
Was thinking of asking him for a lid if he has one that fits
Or maybe smaller one if fits prototype
Am in Australia so getting a chunk of aluminium would cost a lot in postage from USA
Prob sourcing local be cheaper
Thanks for advice
- Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup
Unless you live in a remote area, finding aluminum (or is that aluminium ... ) plate shouldn't be too difficult. Scrap metal dealers might have it as well.
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Re: My fusion setup
silcon seemed to make it worse and harder to get below about 700 - 1000 micron
having trouble attaching pics and small video.
got pos wire on each row of magnets on one side, and neg along other, and does appear to be spinning around magnets at various points.
having trouble attaching pics and small video.
got pos wire on each row of magnets on one side, and neg along other, and does appear to be spinning around magnets at various points.
- Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup
The ideal manner to apply sealant (when it must be done) is to use as little as possible. However, your plexiglass cover will outgas a great deal. Also, wire being used through any sealant as its own feed-thru is very difficult to make vacuum tight (between wire and its insulation, unless bare) - epoxy might be an improvement over silicone. You are dealing with a next to impossible to seal system due to the flimsy nature of the chamber and plexiglass. So, not sure there is a solution except as we mentioned in earlier posts.
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Re: My fusion setup
271 micron managed to get
Def need new chamber this one starting to bend from better seal the pump a bit to strong
- Rich Feldman
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Re: My fusion setup
Nice pictures you got there, Steven. Keep it up.
Do you think the objects on top of the lid, all together, weigh more than 1% of the force from air pressing down? I'm guessing that without them, the lid seals so poorly that the pump can't suck it down enough to close the gap. Sounds like a flatness problem with the rim, or dents in the gasket. When you put lid on pot without a gasket, does it touch on a few high places and leave room for a sheet of paper to be un-pinched at low places? How about when lid is rotated to a different angle? Where can you find a very flat reference surface bigger than your pot and lid?
I think everyone agrees that your ultimate vacuum is probably limited by leaks.
But let's re-visit other possibilities.
Your picture on Feb 13 shows a vacuum hose that's plenty short and thick
between rotary pump and diffusion pump.
How recently have you taken a reading with same vacuum gauge, on same pump, without the large chamber? Last June you cited 15 micron pressure with a valve isolating chamber from diff pump.
I will say again: your clear plastic lid invites an easy way to locate gross leaks. Clean off all grease and silicone sealant. Let's say the pressure levels off at 500 microns with the pump running, and guess that's the equilibrium with flow of air leaking past the gasket. Then if you take some pump oil and apply it on outside of joint, using an acid brush or small paint brush, you should see oil and maybe bubbles appear inside the chamber. Could do the same at the pot-handle connections, which do appear to be spot welded instead of riveted.
Do you think the objects on top of the lid, all together, weigh more than 1% of the force from air pressing down? I'm guessing that without them, the lid seals so poorly that the pump can't suck it down enough to close the gap. Sounds like a flatness problem with the rim, or dents in the gasket. When you put lid on pot without a gasket, does it touch on a few high places and leave room for a sheet of paper to be un-pinched at low places? How about when lid is rotated to a different angle? Where can you find a very flat reference surface bigger than your pot and lid?
I think everyone agrees that your ultimate vacuum is probably limited by leaks.
But let's re-visit other possibilities.
Your picture on Feb 13 shows a vacuum hose that's plenty short and thick
between rotary pump and diffusion pump.
How recently have you taken a reading with same vacuum gauge, on same pump, without the large chamber? Last June you cited 15 micron pressure with a valve isolating chamber from diff pump.
I will say again: your clear plastic lid invites an easy way to locate gross leaks. Clean off all grease and silicone sealant. Let's say the pressure levels off at 500 microns with the pump running, and guess that's the equilibrium with flow of air leaking past the gasket. Then if you take some pump oil and apply it on outside of joint, using an acid brush or small paint brush, you should see oil and maybe bubbles appear inside the chamber. Could do the same at the pot-handle connections, which do appear to be spot welded instead of riveted.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Re: My fusion setup
Aiming to replace chamber when can
My bro has a 40L steriliser that’s a bit more robust he willing to part with
I decided to remove the diffusion pump because the vacuum
Pump cable of getting to below 50 micron if get seals right
It’s rated to 1 Micron for the moment till get seals right
Yeah when cut off chamber and just have diff pump it can get to low pressures easily
The connection between chamber and pipe work is the main issue
Because after made hole Tryed to weld a weld stub to it
So hole isn’t the best weld stub was thinner than base of chamber so stub would melt and disintegrate before weld would happen
Yeah the handle are spot welded not riveted
My bro has a 40L steriliser that’s a bit more robust he willing to part with
I decided to remove the diffusion pump because the vacuum
Pump cable of getting to below 50 micron if get seals right
It’s rated to 1 Micron for the moment till get seals right
Yeah when cut off chamber and just have diff pump it can get to low pressures easily
The connection between chamber and pipe work is the main issue
Because after made hole Tryed to weld a weld stub to it
So hole isn’t the best weld stub was thinner than base of chamber so stub would melt and disintegrate before weld would happen
Yeah the handle are spot welded not riveted
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Re: My fusion setup
Seems to start spinning around magnets but then takes short cut through magnets
Next post will be todays attempt after electrical taped a lot of it
- Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup
Between the poor chamber, the massive amount of materials that appear to be non-vacuum grade and your main seal/plexiglass top, getting a lower vacuum is unlikely. Even with a better chamber and a glass window (no plexiglass!), you must use vacuum grade materials in assembly of your structures - no plastics/epoxies or any non-ceramic or non-metal material in that plasma - no other way.
Last edited by Dennis P Brown on Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My fusion setup
Well it’s what I have to work with at the moment and what I could afford
I do have some ideas about how to work grid and how to finish it, but I don’t have the funds or contact for guy who made the bowl magnets
And at pressures and what I’ve got to looks promising, but prob need help to finish
I do have some ideas about how to work grid and how to finish it, but I don’t have the funds or contact for guy who made the bowl magnets
And at pressures and what I’ve got to looks promising, but prob need help to finish
- Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup
We must all stay within budget! Hopefully, you don't need lower vacuum to demonstrate what you are trying to do.
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Re: My fusion setup
I think it does
Plasma being made at base of magnets spinning up towards center
Got some braided copper sleeve at base of magnets and wire in middle to attract, have videos but there to big to post on forum
Plasma def spins around to center
Think needs a longer run up tho… or stronger magnets
Had to use electrical tape on all of magnets and behind cause energy going in would go through magnets and out end close to center
Instead of going around outside of
Magnets
Plasma being made at base of magnets spinning up towards center
Got some braided copper sleeve at base of magnets and wire in middle to attract, have videos but there to big to post on forum
Plasma def spins around to center
Think needs a longer run up tho… or stronger magnets
Had to use electrical tape on all of magnets and behind cause energy going in would go through magnets and out end close to center
Instead of going around outside of
Magnets
- Richard Hull
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Re: My fusion setup
Nothing helps to kill a vacuum better than plasma bombardment of electrical tape. The out gassing must be tremendous. At least, it keeps the pump busy.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: My fusion setup
hey
run into a bit of trouble with the chamber warping at top when pumping down, and warps out and starts to leak through lid, almost to point of lid might get sucked into chamber, pritty sure got most of leaks sorted and pumping down to fast for chamber to handle.
so need a new chamber,
might be a bit of time before can get things moving again.
But anyway, here's basic idea of what trying to do. just need to get a couple of these bowl magnets, any ideas.
run into a bit of trouble with the chamber warping at top when pumping down, and warps out and starts to leak through lid, almost to point of lid might get sucked into chamber, pritty sure got most of leaks sorted and pumping down to fast for chamber to handle.
so need a new chamber,
might be a bit of time before can get things moving again.
But anyway, here's basic idea of what trying to do. just need to get a couple of these bowl magnets, any ideas.
- Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup
Maybe explain what you are trying to do to go along with the drawing; I don't get what you are driving at with that design - where are voltages applied and do name the parts, as well.
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Re: My fusion setup
Basically purple triangles are ion source
Plasma spins around magnets if doesn’t end of going through hence electrical tape using on magnets I have
Bowl magnets the polarity flips certain distance from bowl
So if have all positive poles facing center on row of magnets and bowls, the bowls would flip and make a negative to attract pos ions.
So ion source would nudge the ion’s down magnets which should spin around upto center which would be attracted by the flipped pole from bowl magnets once close enough.
And hopefully hit the ion coming for opposite row of magnets spinning opposite directions
In theorie
I have an 8kv neon transformer which does well.
One configuration I used of wires and just 2 rows of magnets
Had a circle wire down middle of magnets similar circumference as magents
And 1 circle wire around each row of magnets about 1/4 way down from centre about same distance away from magnet as magnetic field. Not sure which was pos and which neg.
Have a picture on my computer somewhere I think
Anyway the plasma went from the 2 wires from 1/4 way down magnets all way to back then through bolt down middle of magnets to centre to centre ring.
But had it running for a little and got 2 jolts of something standing about a meter back so turned off
Was almost like could see inside myself was weird.
Plasma spins around magnets if doesn’t end of going through hence electrical tape using on magnets I have
Bowl magnets the polarity flips certain distance from bowl
So if have all positive poles facing center on row of magnets and bowls, the bowls would flip and make a negative to attract pos ions.
So ion source would nudge the ion’s down magnets which should spin around upto center which would be attracted by the flipped pole from bowl magnets once close enough.
And hopefully hit the ion coming for opposite row of magnets spinning opposite directions
In theorie
I have an 8kv neon transformer which does well.
One configuration I used of wires and just 2 rows of magnets
Had a circle wire down middle of magnets similar circumference as magents
And 1 circle wire around each row of magnets about 1/4 way down from centre about same distance away from magnet as magnetic field. Not sure which was pos and which neg.
Have a picture on my computer somewhere I think
Anyway the plasma went from the 2 wires from 1/4 way down magnets all way to back then through bolt down middle of magnets to centre to centre ring.
But had it running for a little and got 2 jolts of something standing about a meter back so turned off
Was almost like could see inside myself was weird.
- Dennis P Brown
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Re: My fusion setup
Instead of electrical tape, you could use fast setting ceramic paste (requires only a low temp bake.) Insulates well and is good under vacuum. Energy (which translates to "speed") of the ions in a fusor is due to the acceleration caused by the ions feeling the HV potential. Mechanical motion by a weak magnet trying to impart some tiny increase in ion speed is absolutely trivial, even compared to room temp molecules (i.e. thermal energy), much less ions in a high voltage field. The magnets are far too weak to cause any real deflection of ions used by fusors and certain not increase their velocity or interaction rate to any measurable extent. The big boys use multi-ton, super conductor magnets that create local fields measured in Tesla's - many orders of magnitude higher than simple home magnets; yet even these fields fail to hold a plasma very well.
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Re: My fusion setup
Got myself a new chamber thank to my twin bro
Heavy duty aluminium so Pritty thick.
Can get down to 1000 micron in 3minutes
Heavy duty aluminium so Pritty thick.
Can get down to 1000 micron in 3minutes
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Re: My fusion setup
Looks like a rubber/plastic coated alligator clip (heavy duty) in there?
-Matt
-Matt
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Re: My fusion setup
Yeah
The duck tape and stuff arnt effecting pressure much at all
Plasma doesn’t seem to be melting anything how it is.
Will prob try remove somethings like clip next run
The duck tape and stuff arnt effecting pressure much at all
Plasma doesn’t seem to be melting anything how it is.
Will prob try remove somethings like clip next run
- Richard Hull
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Re: My fusion setup
You will never pull anything like a decent vacuum with even the smallest atom of plastic polymer in a chamber under plasma bombardment. You might as well stop now unless their is nothing in the chamber except metal and gas.
Physics and material science will control what you can do and impose limits to that forever.
Then again, I have a sign over my lab door........"Experiment is what I'm doing when I don't know what I am doing"
Richard Hull
Physics and material science will control what you can do and impose limits to that forever.
Then again, I have a sign over my lab door........"Experiment is what I'm doing when I don't know what I am doing"
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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- Real name: Steven Whittam
- Location: Melbourne/Australia
Re: My fusion setup
Well I know what I’m trying to achieve and where I’m aiming
But yeah is a learning curve
Thank you for advice and information I will take it on board.
I could use one of tho’s signs. Haha
I dropped out of gear 10 due to bullying
But I think Probly left me with a more open mind to come up with something different, not something someone else had taught me.
Do know quite a lot of things not common knowledge.
Like did you know seamen can live upto 14 days in the mouth if don’t brush ya teeth…
But yeah is a learning curve
Thank you for advice and information I will take it on board.
I could use one of tho’s signs. Haha
I dropped out of gear 10 due to bullying
But I think Probly left me with a more open mind to come up with something different, not something someone else had taught me.
Do know quite a lot of things not common knowledge.
Like did you know seamen can live upto 14 days in the mouth if don’t brush ya teeth…
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Re: My fusion setup
Steven, just a suggestion, you know what you want to achieve but it looks like you may need to learn a new skill to achieve it. It looks like you have a lot of things that need to be placed in certain positions and currently you are using plastic and tape. Have you ever thought of learning to work with glass, using a burner to shape it into the forms you need to hold and position things securely?