First ever Turbo experience

Every fusor and fusion system seems to need a vacuum. This area is for detailed discussion of vacuum systems, materials, gauging, etc. related to fusor or fusion research.
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Richard Hull
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First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

Being a perpetual curmudgeon and Luddite, I must admit to total ignorance beyond what I have read here on the care and feeding of a turbo pump.

The story:

My long time friend from the 70's and well known East Coast glass blower and maker of rare gas filled tubes, Bill Connery, had one of the finest vacuum setups for such endeavors one might ask for. Bill has been to virtually every hamfest since the 70's up and down the East coast and was known to thousands of people. He attended every HEAS big event and every New York Teslathon from their inception in the late 80's. People would instantly mob his table, (I was one of them), not even allowing him to complete his setup. We were all after his rare gas tubes, and other completely neat and rare materials he seemed to always have on hand for sale.

Sadly, Bill was diagnosed with untreatable, spreading cancer in 2015. Although his voice was reduced to a whisper, he continued to be seen at every hamfest and HEAS event. Realizing he was near the end, in 2017 he dismantled his vacuum system and brought his Turbo pump to HEAS 2017 and sold it to me, specifically. (I bought my diff pump used on fusor IV from Bill in 2000). Bill was last seen by me at HEAS 2018. He passed away July 4th of this year. He was one of my tutors in vacuum and a hero.

Note: Bill bought this brand new off the showroom floor, $$$$, and put all the 2500 hours on it. He noted that he ran it very intermittently and only when he made tubes or needed it for a project under vacuum.
I will, likewise, rarely run it with the fusor, maybe two of three times per year. My diff pump took it like a champ all these years. If I run it in the winter in a lab at 30 deg F. will it suffer any restraint regarding startup?

HELP!

We have some of the finest users of turbos under our roof here. I need a spoon feeding on the operation of this pump as I hope to use it as I construct fusor V. I do not wish to ruin it through stupidity of a novice operator/user. I have images below. You can glean the model from them. I have many questions.

The top inlet flange is a standard 4.5 conflat. I have a zero length mating flange to 2.75 CF so that is taken care of.
Assuming I am all hooked up and you folks have helped me and it is ready to rock and roll. What are the three buttons and in what order would be proper to start up? (I think I know but humor me)
Does this thing need water cooling? Notice that Bill seems to have gotten along with just the Pfeiffer/Balzers fan on the side.
There are two KF16 ports. the large piped one at the bottom is certainly the foreline hookup. The tiny piped one mid body...Is this for a vacuum gauge? Looks like Bill just blanked it off
There is a heater at the throat or inlet. Is this required and is started by the "heater button" on the controller? Do I heat the throat first in the startup?

Thanks in advance for helping this old luddite out. Make me smart and turbo wise.

Richard Hull
Attachments
Blessedly, absolutely complete with factory cabling...no problem here
Blessedly, absolutely complete with factory cabling...no problem here
less than 2500 hours...Three buttons...In what order do I use to start up the pump
less than 2500 hours...Three buttons...In what order do I use to start up the pump
Hose barbs - Cooling?  Bill did not say he water cooled this puppy. Do I?
Hose barbs - Cooling? Bill did not say he water cooled this puppy. Do I?
Heater marked 35 watt 220 volts at throat...Why is this here and do I need it?
Heater marked 35 watt 220 volts at throat...Why is this here and do I need it?
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Jerry Biehler »

Manual is here, its kind of awful, I use a similar vintage pump in my SEM.

viewtopic.php?t=8021

Pumping unit turns on a relay that can control the fore pump and the turbo I believe. Heater is for baking out, rarely used.

First thing I would do is change the oil, it uses the standard Pfeiffer TL011 oil which is available from Duniway somewhat cheaper than other places.
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

Welcome to the world of turbos, if all goes well you'll never want to go back to a diffusion pump again. If all doesn't go well I encourage you go get another turbo. A turbo pump is a fine addition to a fusor, hopefully it will give you many years of quality vacuum without any oil back streaming of a diffusion pump or need for a foreline trap. A roughing trap for the mechanical pump is a good idea to prevent contamination of the turbo. If you ever need / want to buy another turbo, stick with the pfeiffer line, they are quality pumps. A good upgrade is a TMH-071P, they are relatively plentiful on ebay for about $900 and typically include their own attached 24V input controller:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GOOD-PFEIFFER- ... SwmU1ciAQ4
These are a turbomolecular / molecular drag hybrid and some can tolerate a backing pressure up to 15 Torr. A small 4 stage diaphragm pump typically pulls down to 500mTorr to 1Torr and can back these replacing an oil sealed backing pump. You'll never go back to an oil based backing pump once you have tried a "dry" turbo station; they are virtually service free, never leak oil and really easy to use. Your pump will require a 2 stage oil sealed roughing pump.

There are a few main ways to kill a turbo, most of the are ways to "crash" the turbo by having the rotor and stator blades touch and break.
After a crash the pump looks something like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/engineering/co ... 30000_rpm/
The typical ways to crash the pump are:

Drop something in it while it's running
There is very little clearance between the rotor and stator blades, even a very small object (screw, grid wire fragment) can destroy the pump. Don't position it directly beneath the vacuum chamber. Optionally you can attach a "splinter guard" a fine mesh screen within the inlet of the turbo. It reduces pumping speed somewhat, but a fusor is not a heavy gas load so I think it's well worth the protection.

Rapidly vent to atmosphere while it's running at full speed
Excessive stress on the rotor blades may cause them to touch the stator blades and crash the turbo. If you want to SLOWLY vent while the turbo is spinning down after it is turned off to speed up the shutdown, there are specially designed vent valves that slowly admit air in a safe manner.

Sudden impact, rotation, motion while it's running
Also might cause a crash or damage to the top bearing. The top bearing is a permanent magnetic levitation bearing so no lubricant is required, if the pump is moved or rotated the torque on the rotor will push it to one side. There is a ceramic safety bearing, but it's only there for protection not designed to be spun up; it wares down a little every time it is touched when the rotor is spinning.

In addition most controller manuals warn about disconnecting the cable while the pump is running
Unplug the controller-pump cable while the controller is powered or the turbo is still spinning
The controllers send power to hall effect sensors in the pump, these may be damages, particularly on the older pumps like you have if they are disconnected under power. The rotor will also generate back-emf while spinning; best to wait until the rotor stops before unplugging it.

If you draw a plasma discharge into the inlet of the turbo, you can also damage the electronics, especially the hall effect sensors in the motor. Craig Wallace's fusor killed a turbo of the same model as yours this way. This is another reason to use a mesh screen splinter guard over the turbo inlet.
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by John Futter »

Richard
The little KF16 amidships is for flushing nasties away usually dry nitrogen or dry air into here slowly to flush volatiles -you will not need this so blank it off.
This port is also used on SEMs to bring the pump to a quick halt for sample exchange sort of a Jacobs brake using the bottom of the rotor stack as a compression brake

For the first few minutes start the turbo then stop it a few seconds later restart go double the number of seconds before stopping continue this for as long as you have patience. This ensures that the oil /grease in the bearings is redistributed properly. Any turbo that has been in storage for more than a couple of months will thank you for this treatment
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Bob Reite
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Bob Reite »

In addition to what the turbo experts have said, they do not like sitting in storage for a long time. As a minimum, run your system every three months. Once a month for an hour or so is even better. As I recall, Pfeiffer states that if it sat idle for more than a year it should go back to the factory for bearing cleaning and oil replacement.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

Thanks for the info guys. .... and the manual

What about those hose barbs???
Will the side fan be adequate for 1-2 hour runs????
The three buttons???? no one said a word about start up.....is the stanndby the on-off? Then hit the spin-up button and once at speed, to shut down hit the standby button again? the heater button is for bake out.

I will spin up the pump in short, even increasing bursts as recommended to distribute the oil before full speed. I will not have to worry about debris as the 2.75 CF on top will hook to an S hooked super fine welded flex hose that was used on fusor IV...working like a sink trap....It will mess up the conductance a bit, but hey, the chamber is a cross!

I plan on testing this thing with it mounted rigidly long before I trust it and build it into a fusor V edifice. Until then, the diff pump that is currently mounted and in place on the foreline will remain king of the hill. I paid Bill $75.00 for this turbo system and only $25 for the diff pump back in 2000. $200 is as high as I go for a complete functional turbo with all cabling or it will be diff pumps forever. I bought a 250ml bottle of 704 oil at this 2019 HEAS for $10.00 and have 500ml of Santovac in an unopened bottle that has been hangin' around the lab since 2003. No matter what happens, I have the vacuum system covered.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by John Futter »

Richard
You will only need those hose barbs if you are wasting huge amounts of deuterium
the actual power consumed when spinning @ 10^6 is minimal so no cooling needed
but if you have a huge gas throughtput @ 10^-4 then expect the motor to heat up
in your case you will be choking the turbo back from the chamber so the actual load on the turbo will be minimal

move along nothing of interest here
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I have the identical type; mine has neither a heater nor those fluid lines that yours does.

I use a small fan for cooling and that is more than enough.

For operation, I simply get the system down under 100 microns, and use the "Pumping Unit" button to allow the turbo to get to full speed. The "STAND BY" button is for maintaining a lower quality vacuum for long periods of time (to spare the bearings) - that is, when a system isn't need for high vacuum operation but needs to stay clean. I've never had use for that function in a fusor.

My unit dates to 1986 so I added turbo bearing oil to the internal "oil wick" system when I first obtained the unit. I then pumped the system a few days to out-gas stuff in that added oil (fore pump only.) Then I tested it and the unit did require an hour or so under high speed operation to finish the out-gassing process. I did bake it out then (using a heater strip I borrowed.)

Frankly, I prefer my diffusion pump far more for a fusor and no longer use my turbo (that is for only clean high vac work, anyway). But to each, their own, I guess.

I have a screen cover over mine to protect it from items that could fall in (easier to do than I ever thought) and to protect it from plasma (my unit is also grounded separately to be certain.)

To turn it off, select the "Pumping Unit" button again. The turbo will slow down and stop after a while.

Aside: I have a dry air feed located on that small (16 mm) mid-level adapter flange. AFTER I turn the unit off, I use a valve to feed dry air into the unit/vacuum system via that port. That allows the unit to quickly stop to avoid long spin times in the "unbalanced" rpm period. You'll really hear that if you listen and let it slow on its own. That puts a good bit of strain on the bearings. But most people don't use that function since dry air or other gases aren't usually available.
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Richard Hull
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

Thanks once again for the extra tips. No water cooling and fan only will do. Dry nitrogen is used for slow down by some, but is rather expensive. I wonder if a slow leak of air filtered through dryerite chamber might be OK?

I have read the manual which as noted leaves a bit to be desired. When I unscrew the oil plug in the bottom can I invert the pump? It looks like there is no oil in the cup just a good soaking of the wick and felt.
OR...should I unscrew from the bottom with the pump upright?

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I use dry air - that is, room air filtered and sent through dryerite; however, that was only for my high vac system. Frankly, I'd think for a fusor, it wouldn't really matter all that much if one didn't use dry air at all but just filtered air. Then used their fore pump, afterwards, to pump the system down from atmospheric to below 10 microns.

My oil plug for the end of the "wick" was filled using an eyedropper while the unit was open to the air. My wick screw is on the side of my unit but I guess they differ. But upside down can't hurt the unit as long as it isn't spinning. AS for the oil, wetting the wick doesn't take very much so again, being upside down shouldn't matter. Since you will pump on it and can bake it out, once its under vacuum, that should work fine.
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

Again I want to thank all who have shared their specific knowledge related to turbo pump intricacies. I have read a bit, I have listened to others a lot through past posts and received information on my specific case. I now consider myself well informed on turbo pumps, but until I have the laying upon of the hands, I will not be more than just informed or well read. The real useful learning adventure lay ahead. I realize this is not rocket science, but it is a process. A process that makes complete the reading, the wise advice and mentoring which with the active use and operation turns it into true ownership of knowledge.

This is what all these forums and FAQs are about...Open source sharing, teaching and learning. Still they mean little until put into practice. As I progress in the installation and application of my turbo, I will keep this thread informed.

Once again I quote from Frances Bacon's famous essays; the one called "of Studies". Remember, these are written in the style of English prose in use in the 14th century. Until you get used to Bacon's complex prose the going can be tough in many of his essays.

"To spend too much time in studies is sloth; to use them too much for ornament is affectation; to make judgement wholly by there rules is the humor of the scholar. They perfect nature and are perfected by experience. Crafty men contemn studies, simple men admire them, wise men use them; for they teach not their own use; but that there is wisdom without them and above them, won by observation."

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Bob Reite
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Bob Reite »

My turbo also has hose barbs. It can be either water cooled or air cooled. The packaged unit holding my turbo has a 60 CFM (as I recall) "muffin fan" for cooling.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Richard Hull
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

I would imagine water cooling might be in order if this were a 24-7 running turbo. Doc Bussard's lab had its mechanical and Turbo running 24 -7 when I visited in 2000, courtesy of Tom Ligon, his lab rat. Their fusor was a 3 foot sphere at that time.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by ian_krase »

I think it's not so much long-term running but running for significant duty cycle with significant gas flow.
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Bob Reite
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Bob Reite »

Correct. I will sometimes leave my turbo and roughing pump running all the time. But that's under a pretty hard vacuum, so not much heating once the chamber is pumped down. Heat has not been an issue with my air cooled system.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Jerry Biehler »

I think I fried bearings on a varian pump by running it without cooling and it was connected to a SEM, so no gas load. So watch it, I would at least put a muffin fan on it like in the manual.
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

Both Bob and I have muffin fans on our Turbos. See original post images. Bob claims in the above posts that his pump does use a muffin fan.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Ameen Aydan »

Saw this thread and thought I might ask a question

I have this unit without any cooling assemblies and I’m afraid to try it out without checking the oil. So far I’ve read the manual and I know the process to replace the oil and I know the standard oil needed (TL011). But it’s pretty expensive getting my hands on some.

https://www.duniway.com/part/turbo-oil-100

Is this something I could use? Does anyone have a more economic way?

Thanks,
Ameen Aydan

Edit:

I was dumb and didn't check the MSDS.

https://www.duniway.com/images/_pg/MSDS ... l-100a.pdf

This oil is just repackaged and renamed TL011 oil.

On the brighter side I found a cheaper place to get the oil! Shipping might hurt you though....

https://www.mascom-bremen.de/html/en/va ... 20290.html
Last edited by Ameen Aydan on Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Richard Hull
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

I have read the manual and the thing seems to need only a few drops on a wick in the bottom that is just a screwdriver remove wick plate as opposed to some oil reservoir that needs filling. I think this is what I read.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Ameen Aydan »

I just read it too and it seems to say the same thing. But the begs to ask the question of what this little screw is for:
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What is that for?!
What is that for?!
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by AngeloGomes »

Here, we usually have the heater attached to the chamber, but not at the pump body.

About the venting... you have to wait for the turbo slow down the rotation and then admit air/gas in small amount. If I am not wrong, my pfeiffer performs the first vent operation at 1/3 of the max rotation and then two times more.

Our turbos in the labs: I think the oldest one has maybe 7 years and it is used ocasionally. Never had to go to pfeiffer or the oil changed. Maybe when we note a poor performance, we will think about it.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Dennis P Brown »

In your picture (your circled item), that appears to be the access port for the bearing oil wick. I added a few drops of oil to the wick at that location in my unit (it was dated 1988 and never serviced so I figured it needed new oil; hey, the unit, cable and controller ran all of $10), resealed the cap, and after a long bake out and pump down (the oil can have some water from the air if it has been openned previously and stored a long time - mine was) the pump ran great from there on.

The turbo pictured has a vent port (just above your circled plug; the port with the Kf-16 fitting) and that is where dry air can be installed/used to vent the pump after it is turned off. If venting at that location is not used, it is best to let the pump slow down completely before venting - even slowly. There is a danger to bend the blades in these older turbos if one lets in just a lttle too much air. Far better to err on the safe side and just let it stop on its own.
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

As I prepare to mount my turbo that has remained fallow for 4 years. Purchased from a friend with a working system in 2016. I am ordering the pump oil ($50) which is a wick system oiler rather than a reservoir of liquid oil. I attach images. It seems weird the oil is distributed via a wicking system requiring the oil to rise up the shaft to the bearing via wiping it shaft with a wick!! Of course I do not know what a 90,000 rpm shaft does as traces of oil wipe off the wick. (Climbs the shaft against gravity?)

images show cutaway drawing with supposed conical shaft with wicking wiping the cone in two places. My pump in photo is a small round cylindrical shaft with a wick gasket rubbing at two points being keep wet via its feeding off the cup's oil laden wicking.

Don't mention the debris "bits" in the last photo, it has been removed

Bizarre.

Richard Hull
Attachments
Manual's view of what the wick cup should look like.
Manual's view of what the wick cup should look like.
Cut away from user manual shows a bit different arrangement than mine.
Cut away from user manual shows a bit different arrangement than mine.
Flash photo of wick in Cup and shaft
Flash photo of wick in Cup and shaft
In the housing the wick washer is seen contacting the shaft in two places.
In the housing the wick washer is seen contacting the shaft in two places.
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by ian_krase »

In at least some cases, the oil is wiped onto the shaft in the form of a thin film, and then centrifugal force drives the oil film outward and upward a shaft that's in the shape of a gently tapered inverted cone.
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Richard Hull
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Re: First ever Turbo experience

Post by Richard Hull »

I have the tiny $50 bottle of oil on order now. I just want to know that once I bolt the turbo to the table it is oiled with the proper oil as access to the oil port is forever not accessible once the system is finished. According to the manual it is good to go for 5000 hours!! This sucker better work!

My lab is a mess as all the old fusor IV bits laden all the benches ready for re-install of fusor IV if this doesn't go anywhere that pleases me. I move slow and will test all along the way for tight vacuum through out. Due to cold and the press of engagements, I'll be lucky to have this thing up and running by spring or early summer. The idea is to use what I have on hand here in the build or cobble up what I need.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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