Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Every fusor and fusion system seems to need a vacuum. This area is for detailed discussion of vacuum systems, materials, gauging, etc. related to fusor or fusion research.
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

After some searching on the internet for a 8” O.D. ConFlat flange, it came to my attention that they a quite expensive and not a viable option for me. I mean, these things go for $190 cad at its cheapest. So I thought that maybe I could use the 3D auto cad files that come from the manufacturer such as MDC vacuum or Kurt J. L., and request a custom piece to be made on a CNC machine. They are pretty accurate with it 5 axis controls and precision techniques. Could this be a viable option, and can it work in the conditions needed to produce fusion?

Just a side note:

I plan to use 304ss and as a finish to ensure a quality surface, I thought I could sand it down with fine grit sand paper then use an electropolishing technique. Any suggestions?


And if anyone wants to sell me it cheap, not caring if it’s used, that would be great.

Thank you!
Dan Knapp
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:34 am
Real name: Dan Knapp

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Dan Knapp »

It is doubtful that you could buy the SS material and pay for a CNC job and end up with a flange for less than just buying it. Check LDC Vacuum Products for some of the lowest prices from a regular vendor. Best deals are on eBay, but the “buyer beware” rule applies.
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

Btw I will be using a cnc machine through college to make it cheaper than Normal
Bruce Meagher
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 11:25 pm
Real name: Bruce Meagher
Location: San Diego

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Bruce Meagher »

Clearly these type of flanges are made on CNC machines, so no reason you couldn't make one on a “precision” 5-axis CNC. However, as Dan mentions, it’s very unlikely you can make one cheaper (unless you have access to cheap 8”x8"x7/8” SS plate, custom CNC tooling, free time on the CNC, and don’t make mistakes). If your goal is to learn precision machining then by all means go for it. If you’re trying to do physics experiments maybe consider scaling down your chamber.

If you provided an introduction and told us about your goals maybe we could help steer you in a more cost effective direction.

Bruce
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

Bruce Meagher wrote: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:11 pm Clearly these type of flanges are made on CNC machines, so no reason you couldn't make one on a “precision” 5-axis CNC. However, as Dan mentions, it’s very unlikely you can make one cheaper (unless you have access to cheap 8”x8"x7/8” SS plate, custom CNC tooling, free time on the CNC, and don’t make mistakes). If your goal is to learn precision machining then by all means go for it. If you’re trying to do physics experiments maybe consider scaling down your chamber.

If you provided an introduction and told us about your goals maybe we could help steer you in a more cost effective direction.

Bruce
What might make my goal more clear. I live in Hamilton, and there is a HUGE steel factory, so that’s not a problem. I have contacted a college to ask to use there machines, if that doesn’t work out, $50 an hour isn’t too much compared to some 400 I would need to pay. Plus, I already have the AutoCAD files, so no need for too much work, I would imagine.

Ameen
Dan Knapp
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:34 am
Real name: Dan Knapp

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Dan Knapp »

I was just browsing eBay and found about 45 pages of conflat components including several 8 inch flanges for under $100US. There is what I’m pretty sure is an 8 inch blank flange for $45US. The seller didn’t state the size, but the photo looks like an 8 inch. In my experience, sellers will often accept a lower offer. One must be careful not to get a flange with fatally nicked knife edge. Sellers range widely in knowledge about these items. Often they are listed for more than the new cost. I’ve even seen people trying to sell used gaskets. Unless you particularly want to try making conflats, there are cheaper ways to achieve the goal of building a vacuum system.
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

Dan Knapp wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:45 am I was just browsing eBay and found about 45 pages of conflat components including several 8 inch flanges for under $100US. There is what I’m pretty sure is an 8 inch blank flange for $45US. The seller didn’t state the size, but the photo looks like an 8 inch. In my experience, sellers will often accept a lower offer. One must be careful not to get a flange with fatally nicked knife edge. Sellers range widely in knowledge about these items. Often they are listed for more than the new cost. I’ve even seen people trying to sell used gaskets. Unless you particularly want to try making conflats, there are cheaper ways to achieve the goal of building a vacuum system.
Thats very odd. I only see two pages on ebay, and not one single 8” flange. I dont know why. Perhaps it’s because I’m from Canada? Can you show me some links, please?
John Futter
Posts: 1848
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:29 pm
Real name: John Futter
Contact:

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by John Futter »

Amen
It has already been hinted at
You have not followed the rules of this site
this sort of question would have been better in the "New User Area"
and should only have been asked after posting in the introduce yourself section
also your username and real name need to be the same as your real name
no handles no nicknames
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

John Futter wrote: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:03 pm Amen
It has already been hinted at
You have not followed the rules of this site
this sort of question would have been better in the "New User Area"
and should only have been asked after posting in the introduce yourself section
also your username and real name need to be the same as your real name
no handles no nicknames
sorry, my real name is ameen i just had a typo saying that it was amen. i also did not know about the introduce your self area. also, i highly doubt that this post belongs to the new user area, as i require this to be answered promptly, hence why im usinh this website
John Futter
Posts: 1848
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:29 pm
Real name: John Futter
Contact:

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by John Futter »

Ameen
I would seriously doubt that you will be successful in making your own flanges
The knife edge sharpness and smoothness is critical and your saying you will sand it to get it right is how many destroy commercial flanges.
It requires a huge CNC to do this with utmost rigidity to stop tool chatter.
There are CF flanges available from china that are below cost of the material
So again why are you trying to make them

As for speed of answer the new user chat area tends rto answered quickest
MatthewL
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:13 pm
Real name: Matthew Lallinger
Location: Houston, Tx

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by MatthewL »

Ameen,

Are you planning to build a fusion reactor or just a vacuum chamber for various experiments? If so, I wouldn't think you would need an 8 inch CF flange unless you already have a chamber you are going to use and need a blank to close one of the ports, or if you are making a massive vacuum chamber. For fusion you could use a chamber with only 2.75" CF flanges. In that case the flanges could be made on most manual and CNC lathes with proper tooling, or bought for even cheaper from somewhere such as Ebay or LDS vacuum. LDS vacuum has 8 inch CF blank flanges for $120 USD, it would be tough to manufacture a flange of this size even cheeper.
Also, there is no need to quote my post if you reply.

-Matthew
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

Hello,

I was planning to make my fusion reactor 6” in diameter. I just thought I could use a cnc machine from a college that would be willing to help due to their precise technique, and if that doesn’t work, my school has a 2 axis cnc machine that works on old software. And like I said, I would polish this to an extreme to prevent any leaks. As you can see, the price of using a cnc machine does not concern me, but the cost for a $120 flange does. I’m only asking if it is possible to reach fusion atmosphere with a homemade flange.

Ameen
Jackson Oswalt
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:10 am
Real name: Jackson Oswalt

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Jackson Oswalt »

Yes, it's possible to reach pressures low enough for fusion with a homemade flange. The real question is whether or not YOU Are capable of making a good enough flange. Unless you have experience with precision machining your chances of creating a usable flange are very low. You would be far better off purchasing these flanges. In fact, I have two that are brand new from LDS vacuum if you'd like to purchase them. However, reality is that they will cost more than $120. If the price of the flanges scares you, then you may want to revisit this project once you saved up some more money. Building a fusor is costly.
Youngest person to build a fusor
ian_krase
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:48 am
Real name: Ian Krase

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by ian_krase »

It's not needed to have conflat flanges for fusion. If you can do CNC machinist, an O ring groove is more than good enough.
Tom McCarthy
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 3:36 pm
Real name: Tom McCarthy
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Tom McCarthy »

MatthewL
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:13 pm
Real name: Matthew Lallinger
Location: Houston, Tx

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by MatthewL »

It is possible to machine CF flange on a CNC machine, but it really depends on the machine. I am assuming you mean a CNC milling machine. In that case it will ultimately depend on the specific machine. Is it rigged enough, big enough, etc.? I doubt a college workshop would have the proper machine and the necessary tooling to create the knife edge.
CF flanges are made to work at the ultra high vacuum (down to 1X10^-13 torr). A CF flange is not at all necessary for fusion pressures. Really, any O ring sealed flange, such as a KF or ISO, will work great as long as the proper material is used (Viton, nitrile, etc.). You could make a CF flange, but not use a knife edge, instead you could use an O ring groove. Regardless, stainless is a very difficult material to machine, and if you decide to go with a CF flange, it would be far easier to purchase one.
Are planning to use the 8 inch CF flanges for a spherical chamber?

-Matthew
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

The college that i'm asking has very heavy and precise milling machines (yes, CNC milling machines), that being said, I would imagine that it is possible to create a knife edge. Just thinking of it, MDC or Kurt J. Lesker probably have the exact same CNC machines in terms of specs. The CNC machines they used in accuvac, in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGNRapSjGVU, are also the same as the colleges from what I have seen. So maybe it is possible, but I would need to know the accuracy of the knife edge to what degree in order to integrate it into the making of the ConFlat flanges. If that doesn't work, I would be happy to look at the design of an O-ring ConFlat flange. And yes, my plans are to create a spherical chamber with a diameter of 6", and if my plans to make a ConFlat flange go well, maybe even 8".\

Ameen
John Futter
Posts: 1848
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:29 pm
Real name: John Futter
Contact:

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by John Futter »

ameen
will you pplease stop copying in what others have said in your replies
it wastes server space and makes things hard to read and as such is frowned upon on this site
Last edited by John Futter on Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

i apologize, i am new so thank you for giving me these tips, it is quite helpful.
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Richard Hull »

I went back and edited out the quotes and am sensitive to the needless quoting by many noobs and will continue to delete and edit out long needless quotes.

As always, we, here, are smart enough to follow a thread from beginning to end without repeat-re-quotes within a single original posting.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Ameen Aydan
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:33 pm
Real name: Ameen Aydan

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Ameen Aydan »

ok thanks, can we get to answering the question now... please?
Jackson Oswalt
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:10 am
Real name: Jackson Oswalt

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Jackson Oswalt »

Your question has been answered countless times. Is there something you’d like to hear? Yes, you can make your own conflat flange. Go ahead. The question you are asking is not a yes or no question, but you want a yes or no answer. If you truly believe you are capable of making a decent flange, then do it. Maybe you’ll learn something.
Youngest person to build a fusor
Jerry Biehler
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:08 am
Real name:
Location: Beaverton, OR

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Jerry Biehler »

Yes, you can. You dont need a CNC machine. And CNC is much more complex than throwing a CAD file at a machine and make it go.

I made this adapter years and years ago, manually machined:

ImageIMGP4940 by Jerry Biehler, on Flickr
Jerry Biehler
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:08 am
Real name:
Location: Beaverton, OR

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Jerry Biehler »

Better pic with less glare:

ImageIMGP4948 by Jerry Biehler, on Flickr
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Can I make my own ConFlat flanges?

Post by Richard Hull »

I also hand turned and hand milled my first true fusor flanges, view port window and adaptors. Many hours and great fun at the time. When figured against a paying wage for my efforts versus the list price of true conflats. I would have been payed a bit over $1.00 per hour, once material costs were figured in. At my age I rather live those hours doing more fun stuff than standing at a lathe or mill as I have more money now than time.

If you have full access and command over a CNC system, and all materials needed, go for it. No need to discuss it, just do it!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Post Reply

Return to “Vacuum Technology (& FAQs)”