Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

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ca103
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Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by ca103 »

Hello!
My name is Cade Allen and I have been wanting to build a Fusor for a long time.
I love Physics and other science topics. I want to build a demo fusor to learn more about fusion and/or plasma. I am not a typical kid who sits inside all day and plays video games. I am willing to spend about $300 to build a small demo fusor. In the future, I want to build an actual fusion reactor.


Here is my parts list so far:


Power Supply: http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=459


Vacuum Pump: http://www.amazon.com/Robinair-15115-Va ... acuum+pump

Pressure Vessel: Glass Jar

Reactor Grid: Stainless Steel Grid from shapeways

Thanks,
Cade Allen
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Richard Hull
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Richard Hull »

Cade, This is very young, even for a demo device. If you have the right stuff and a good older mentor, (parent or teacher), you might be the youngest to build a demo device, yet. Good luck and keep us informed.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Physics lovers
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Physics lovers »

Your idea is good, but if the pressure vessel is glass bottles, glass bottles are likely to split.
Nick Collyge
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Nick Collyge »

Where are you from, Cade? My brother and I are 11 and 12 years old and trying to build a fusor. It would be great to talk to someone our age working on a project like this. We live in Arkansas. (United States)

Nick Collyge
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by AllenWallace »

>Your idea is good, but if the pressure vessel is glass bottles, glass bottles are likely to split.

I don't agree. Using a wide mouth canning jar is an excellent vacuum chamber for a small demo fusor and other small vacuum experiments. They are designed for vacuum service, or at least down to 17 torr.
You may have read Shawn Calson's "Working in a Vacuum" which used a canning jar vacuum chamber.

It is VERY important that you shield the glass jar with plastic because any flaw in the glass may cause an implosion resulting in flying glass. Glass shards in your hand in inconvenient but glass in your eye is beyond inconvenient. I used a discarded 2 liter clear plastic pop bottle which fit neatly around the vacuum chamber.

I also know that a simple flyback transformer driven with two 2N3055 transistors can supply a low-current high-voltage source that weakly shows plasma including star mode. I had to turn off the lights but the plasma was all there to see. If you use a flyback from a computer CRT monitor, you have to do some tricks because the polarity of the flyback with it's build in diodes is backwards for fusors.

Good luck,

Allen Wallace
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Brian_Gage »

Hi Kade and Welcome,
Hope you take the time to read the FAQ's, and all the warnings about the dangers of HV.

I include these two quotes-
">Your idea is good, but if the pressure vessel is glass bottles, glass bottles are likely to split."
and-

"I don't agree. Using a wide mouth canning jar is an excellent vacuum chamber for a small demo fusor and other small vacuum experiments. They are designed for vacuum service, or at least down to 17 torr.
You may have read Shawn Calson's "Working in a Vacuum" which used a canning jar vacuum chamber.

It is VERY important that you shield the glass jar with plastic because any flaw in the glass may cause an implosion resulting in flying glass. Glass shards in your hand in inconvenient but glass in your eye is beyond inconvenient. I used a discarded 2 liter clear plastic pop bottle which fit neatly around the vacuum chamber.">

Kade, I'm blind, and lost my sight from a stupid accident at the age of 18. Granted, that was from fireworks and not physics, but it only takes a moment. You will get a lot of good advice here, but listening is a critical component.
A few members on this forum have told me they used various glass chambers, including canning jars, to achieve their first plasma, but only for a demo fusor. I have a suggestion for a tough safety shield. It comes from a 1960's science magazine article describing the construction of a pyrex tube plasma chamber and power supply. Build a 5 sided box of 1/2" thick boards, then screw a thick plexiglass type shield across the front. Mount your canning jar inside this, with suitable holes on the ends, top or bottom for HV leads and vacuum line. (A lot tougher than a plastic pop bottle).
My father made home-brew beer. Once, the bottles started exploding in a closet. There were quart Coke bottle shards imbedded in a 3/8" thick birch hardwood door. Flying glass from an implosion will do similar damage.

Microwave transformmers with a Variac and CW (Cocroft-Walton) voltage doublers or quadruplers will also do for plasma. Remember, the high voltage from any plasma producing power supply can kill. Sometimes, HV will perform deadly tricks, jumping and arcing along paths never expected.

Be safe.
Best Regards, Brian
ca103
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by ca103 »

I know this thread is probably dead, and I am sorry about that.
Anyways, I have been busy with school and many other things.
I am thinking about building my demo fusor before Summer ends. Do you think the Robinair pump will hold up? Also, I might use a T pipe joint instead if a glass mason jar.

Thanks for all of the helpful info! (Sorry about my typing, it's currently about 2:50 in the morning.)

-Cade Allen
Julian Kang
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Julian Kang »

At 1.5CFM, it may take a few minutes to empty out your chamber, a review says that it brings i down to 30 inHg, which is above atmospheric pressure, though I'm pretty sure he made an error and its 30 mm inHg. I still think you should choose another rough vacuum pump just to be sure.

Julian
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Chris Bradley »

Julian Kang wrote:At 1.5CFM, it may take a few minutes to empty out your chamber, a review says that it brings i down to 30 inHg, which is above atmospheric pressure, though I'm pretty sure he made an error and its 30 mm inHg.
Julian, I'm sorry to say that this is really very misinformed.

In general, if you have a question, feel free to ask it... If you have a piece of experience from an experiment or professional knowledge, please post it... but let someone else address questions if you don't have an answer.
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Jack Rosky »

My friend tried to use the same high voltage system as you. It did not work, infact it broke! I don't know if it was his fault or the actual device. I hope the same doesn't happen to you. Just giving you a heads up.
Sincerely,
Jack Rosky
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Scott Moroch
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Scott Moroch »

I have purchased a robinair pump amd the same high voltage power supply from united nuclear. I quickly tested my fusor and it failed. I have spent a month researching my equipment and know a lot about it. If you need any assistance with your demo fusor feel free to ask me any questions especially about the high voltage or pump. I have been told that 25kv@5ma will not work I will tell you how it goes. I will be testing my fusor again shortly.

Good luck,

Scott
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Carl Willis
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Carl Willis »

Jack,

Can you clarify your comment about the failure? I'm not clear from reading if you mean the experiment with the fusor failed, somehow, or if the power supply failed (broke down).

The power supply in question is not one that meets the frequently-discussed criteria for even "demo" fusors, as its maximum output will be less than 12 watts. In other words, it cannot deliver more than 480 microamps at 25 kV, and in reality probably delivers considerably less. The reason why is simple: it is powered from a 12V/1A power supply (12 watts max input). If one is lucky, a faint glow discharge might be sustained in a fusor with this supply. However, it's not evident that the supply can even be hooked up to a typical fusor geometry with the anode (chamber or outer electrode) grounded and still deliver output. Maybe it can, maybe not; all depends on the internal configuration, not described by United Nuclear. Anyway, you did the experiment and hopefully can shed light on what exactly didn't work out for you and why.

The forum's archives document a wealth of proven power supply solutions, including neon sign transformers (for "demo" fusors only), x-ray transformers, microwave oven transformers driving large Cockroft-Walton multipliers, homebrew off-line inverters driving RF transformers and multipliers, multipliers driven by multiple CCFL inverters, and of course traditional HV power supplies made by Spellman, Glassman, Bertan, Universal Voltronics, Hipotronics, etc. obtained as surplus. Suitable power supplies need not be expensive. Previous experience or basic knowledge of electronics is a strongly-advised prerequisite to a fusor project.

-Carl
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Scott Moroch
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Scott Moroch »

Carl,

If this high voltage power supply from united nuclear did in fact produce 25kv@5ma and no less than 5ma. Could this power supply work in a demo fusor. I have spent hours going through the posts on this website and have seen people who say they have run a demo fusor at 8kv@4ma.

Sincerely,

Scott
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity"
-Albert Einstein
Tom McCarthy
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Tom McCarthy »

Scott,

Your q's directed to Carl, hope ya don't mind me trying to answer.

From what I've read a 5ma 10kv supply can run a demo fusor - I haven't built one or anything though...
I'm not sure about the current, 10kv seems to be enough for a demo but as I said I'm not too sure about the current needed for a demo Fusor.

Hope it helped,
Tom
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Scott Moroch
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Scott Moroch »

Tom,

Thank you for your help. I emailed the company and they told me they test every high voltage supply to make sure it runs at 25kv@5ma and if it does not, then I can ship it back and they will fix it to run at that. So my main concern was making sure that it will run at 5ma. I saw one post where someone produced neutrons at 30kv@7ma. Thank you again for your help.

Sincerely,

Scott
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity"
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Nick Peskosky
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Nick Peskosky »

Scott,

Carl attempted to clarify this in his post earlier but let me make this explicit beyond a doubt. Consider Ohm's law: If the United Nuclear supply is driven by a 12VDC adapter rated at a MAXIMUM current of 1A then under ideal circumstances assuming no switching or joule heating losses the supply could source an input power of P = I*R = (1A)*(12V) = 12 Watts. UN quoted you that the supply could run at 25kV and 5mA, referring back to our power equation that would mean P = I*V = (25,000V)*(0.005A) = 125 Watts... leaving 113 Watts of electrical power evolving out of thin air. The person you spoke to may have meant that the supply might be able to deliver 25kV OR 5mA current over it's range of operation but based on the aforementioned math it's not going to occur simultaneously. I've purchased chemicals and lab glassware from UN before and have been less than thrilled with their customer support.

Sorry to rain on the parade.

Nick
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Carl Willis
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Carl Willis »

Scott,

Their own description makes clear, in two places, that the power supply CANNOT source 5 mA at the same time it is delivering 25 kV.

First of all, it is driven with a 12V / 1A power supply. Multiply twelve by one. That's how much power is available to the HV supply. Conservation of energy dictates that more power cannot come out of the HVPS than goes into the HVPS. So 12 watts can be delivered, in theory (arbitrarily somewhat less in practice). If delivery voltage is fixed at 25 kV, you find the maximum current theoretically available at that voltage by dividing 12 by 25,000. It's nowhere close to 5 mA. It's physically impossible for it to deliver 5 mA at 25 kV.

Secondly, I quote from UN's website:
The HV Power Supply produces 25 kV (open circuit) with a short circuit current of <5 ma.
25 kV OPEN CIRCUIT. Translation: the load draws NO current. Short circuit current of <5 mA means it produces less than 5 mA at short circuit, or zero volts output.

Do the math.

Do the reading.


-Carl
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by charlie_mccartney »

I am 15 and I have aqquired a decent amount of parts and just a word of knowledge, get a REAL NST for free-$90. It needs to be solid metal and weigh 20-50 pounds (mine weighed at 45). It also needs to have ceramic knobs for the input and outputs. My NST is 15kv 30ma.

He has one more if you would like to buy it.
Here is his Ebay http://myworld.ebay.com/markebenson/
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Scott Moroch
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Re: Building a Fusor at 12 Years Old

Post by Scott Moroch »

Thank you everyone for your help with my high voltage power supply. Luckily I can still use the United Nuclear power supply for other science experiments and I will probably buy a neon sign transformer and use that for my fusor.

Thanks again,

Scott
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity"
-Albert Einstein
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