Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Reflections on fusion history, current events, and predictions for the 'fusion powered future.
Q
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Q »

hi larry,
wow! quite impressive. but how do you evacuate the chamber on such a small amount of power?

Q
AnGuy
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by AnGuy »

My concern living in South East would be Hurricanes. As the global temperate rises, the planet will work off excess heat with severe weather. The hotter it gets the more frequent and violent the storms will become, and the hurricane season will grow longer. The prime targets for hurricanes is Florida, Georgia, S.C and N.C. If we have another season like 2004, I would expect insurance to get real pricey in that region. However, It might take a few more decades before the rise in global temperature permanently changes the weather in that region. I am not a climatologist, but it only seems logical that warmer water will increase hurricanes. JMHO.
AnGuy
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by AnGuy »

>A wall with four feet of blown insulation would approximate the insulative quallities of an underground house without all the expense and headache of dirt structures. A proper selection of the blown insulation will make it a much safer house by far than even the best wooden house.

What will you use for the supports for the four foot space for the insulation? FWIW, I would be a little concerned using galvanized steel. The Zinc forms "Zinc Whiskers" which are bad for electroncs because the causes shorts on pcbs. I would imagine they aren't much better for lungs.

The other issues I would be concerned with is rust and condensation. Unless your using Aluminum, every hole drilled in the metal is a potential spot for rust. Since Metal is a good heat sink, it will likely cause condensation on any area exposed to air. This could promote rust and mold growth. I think the blown foam insulation holds water. if you get a leak, would end up a four foot sponge that would promote mold growth.

If your using metal studs, I think you need to some sort of rubbers spacers to avoid conduction in the studs. Otherwise your four feet of insulation could be inaffective.

I was thinking of building a wooden house but use larger studs (maybe 2/6s) to permit extra insulation, and use insulation caulking to seal the studs to the exterior plywood. Usually contractors just nail the ply wood to the studs which sometimes doesn't effectively block drafts. Wood is reasonably good as an insulator. Plus you can add sheet foam insulation to the exterior before putting up the siding.

What is your thoughts on Ground loops for heating and cooling? I was thinking about using a ground loop for summer cooling, but I am not sure how much sense it would be for heating. I think it would work well for cooling in the summer.

As far as Rats, if you seal the walls well for insulation, you need not worry about rats and mice. The move trough holes in the studs for electrical and pluming. If all these holes were back filled with calking, they will not be able to to get into the walls in the first place. Second I am a firm believer in using BX cable instead of Romex for electrical cable. Just as easy for a rat to chew a electrical cable, a human can hit the cable with a drill or nail.

As for going 12V for the household electrical, I would be concerned with finding applicances and electronics that run on 12Vs. Pretty much everything sold on the market is geared to 120VAC. The power usage in my home are heating and cooling, with the Air conditioner as the biggest current sink, followed by the furnance (uses water pump, oil pump and blower), Washer/Dryer, and kitchen applicances. I think would be difficult to find these devices that operate at 12V. Perhaps they could be converted over to 12V by replacing the motor and other components, but that seems very time consuming, and forget about getting it serviced if it breaks. Plus you will need to run extra thick cabling to run these devices since you need about 10 times the current at 12v as you do at 120V.

For everything else in the house that use electricity, the power consumption is low. All of the lighting could be replaced with LED bulbs which use next to nothing and the entertainment electronics (TV, Radio, etc) also use very little current.

On the storage side of the issue, battery technology just stinks (literately too!). You need a lot of heavy and expensive batteries that contain hazardous chemicals. They have short live spans and disposal is always an issue. I think the flywheel for energy storage is a better solution. If they use magnetic bearings, they would virtually operate like solid state devices and have virtually unlimited charge/discharge cycles. But no one is mass producting them yet.

Finally, Even if the oil does run out tommorow, there will always be access to electricity (perhaps with current limits per household). Electricity will continue to be produced using coal and nuclear. I suppose coal could also be used for home heating and hot water. If you have a few acres of land getting a few tons of coal delivered should be much of an issue. Unless the gov't restricts the use of coal.
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by MontyRoberts »

Well, IMHO you are all on the right path. My house, which I consider to be an inefficient energy hog, used about $35 worth of wood to provide heat for the entire winter heating season (4-5 months). Compare this to my friends and family whining about $300/month natural gas bills or worse for heating fuel. Incidentally there is enough renewable wood on my property to heat my house indefinitely, but I trust you will understand that for $35/year it is not worth the effort to cut it.

I am located in a temperate climate, and the winter is not “warm”. The house is a retrofitted frame house. It does have 2x6in walls and 2x10 in ceilings. The walls are filled with a 6 in layer of sprayed in foam insulation. The ceilings have about 8 in of foam. It is a urethane foam that uses a soy base rather than a crude oil based urethane (not that I care, one was just cheaper and had better characteristics than the other-for instance, it does not produce cyanide gas when combusted with oxygen, something I value for my home). The key to the foam is that it seals all the air leaks, thus preventing condensation. No mold.

Rats?-get some cats.

Or if you do not like cats a Jack Russell or some other rat dog.

Don’t like animals? Traps.

Failing this get a pellet gun-rats are commonly used as a source of food in the orient. I find that a little sesame oil, garlic and red pepper do wonders.

Chickens turn ticks and grass hoppers into omelets and chicken dinners. Transmutation I swear! (note: requires some assembly)

Pigs turn garbage and snakes into pork roast and Crispy Bacon, of which there is at least one connoisseur on this list.

My house is a passive solar design. The sun provides most of the heat for the winter months. Cooling is only needed during about 2-3 months of the year. A small 1.5 ton heat pump is sufficient to dehumidify the air for comfort. If the heat pump were a ground source unit it would be even better.

My total utility bills, minus communications, are $55 per month. This is with an energy hog fridge, a dehumidifier running in the crawl space, a terribly inefficient clothes washer, an electric dryer, an electric water heater (very efficient model on a timer. If I turn it off, I still have warm water a week later), and a computer that runs continuously. At current prices it would take about $15-20K USD in wind and solar to offset my power usage completely. At $55/ month I’ll wait a while. $3K on some better appliances would be better spent.

I collect rain water in cisterns and use an inefficient jet pump and pressure tank.

Plus there is a sump pump that keeps the basement dry-terrible.

I DO NOT SUFFER ANY INCONVIENIENCE. I have a dish washer, a flush toilet, a clothes washer, a hot shower, a microwave, a computer, and a TV which I use to watch movies and DVD’s on occasion-no time for the brain rot on the boob toob. MY HOUSE IS AN ENERGY HOG. I could easily cut my consumption to 1/10th my current rate. If I were to start from scratch like Larry, I could do even better.

I read a lot of pessimism on this board and elsewhere regarding the energy situation and I feel a lot of it is unfounded. There is a great deal of waste in our society. We produce about 40% of our oil domestically. With a small conservation effort we could be independent of foreign oil.

We have many ready sources of energy available. The real problem is an energy carrier. The Germans manufactured synthetic hydrocarbons in WWII from coal. It is possible to do the same today. We have lots of coal. Simple catalytic processes from the gaslight era will save our bacon. We have lots of very diffuse intermittent energy sources. The problem is storage in a concentrated transport medium. If you are on a global warming kick and wish to close the carbon cycle-fine; electrolysis to form H2 from water, use an amine solution to collect CO2 from the atmosphere, a RWGS reaction to form CO, mix to form syngas, add a few mostly exothermic catalytic reactions and POW! You got synthetic diesel fuel, gasoline, and CH4; Instant energy carriers and an existing infrastructure to boot. The hydrogen economy is pure fiction, but the hydrocarbon economy is fact. Just close the loop. You can forget $20/barrel oil however.

If you think the exploration/extraction/transport/defense and refining of crude oil are free of cost go watch Jerry Springer.

On a recent trip, I flew over the south western US. Nothing but desert as far as I could see from 30K feet. Nothing out there but salt flats, soap bush, sage brush, and lots of abandoned oil wells. I did see quite a few wind mills, and I thought, put a wind mill, solar thermal hydrogen plant/CO2 capture and catalytic hydrocarbon plant on each one of those well sites, depending on local conditions-no problem; just a matter of economics.

Cheer up guys we are only one bad bird flu away from resolution .

Monty
AnGuy
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by AnGuy »

Hi Monty,

Thanks for the comments. see below:

>I read a lot of pessimism on this board and elsewhere regarding the energy situation and I feel a lot of it is unfounded. There is a great deal of waste in our society. We produce about 40% of our oil domestically. With a small conservation effort we could be independent of foreign oil.

Unfortunately 40% is unsustainable. About 20% comes from Alaska which is nearing depletion. The US can never meet its oil demand, no matter how efficent we can become. Every year the domestic production will decline.

>Simple catalytic processes from the gaslight era will save our bacon. We have lots of very diffuse intermittent energy sources. The problem is storage in a concentrated transport medium.

Those processes are hugely inefficient, At best we are talking maybe about one million bbl per day, and it would take an awful lot of infrastructure to make that figure. I suspect that most of the investment in this infrastructure will be used to support military anyway.

>If you are on a global warming kick and wish to close the carbon cycle-fine; electrolysis to form H2 from water, use an amine solution to collect CO2 from the atmosphere, a RWGS reaction to form CO, mix to form syngas, add a few mostly exothermic catalytic reactions and POW!

All these process required vast amounts of energy. They are all energy losers, meaning it takes more energy to create these fuels then than produced when consumed. The H2 economy is a pipe dream. www.energybulletin.net had a good article that debunks the H2 economy
.
I am not big worrier about global warming. Even if the US was to cap its carbon emissions, it wouldn't stop 1.4 Billion Chinese or 1 billion in India from doing what ever they please.

I don't drive an SUV, but nor do I drive a hybrid. Whats the point of conserving when the majority its going to just consume everything anyway? Conservation at the individual level or even national level is pointless. The entire world needs to be part of the plan, which of course will never happen. The day the world conserves, is the day when they are forced to by lack of supply.

>If you think the exploration/extraction/transport/defense and refining of crude oil are free

No, but the global has 150 years invested in infrastructure that is dependant on Oil. We can not simple replace 150 years of infrastructure in a decade, nor can the planet sustain 6+ billion on just coal, nuclear, and renewable energy. Plus a lot of the world doesn't have abundant supplies of coal and nuclear power.

When the oil wells in the Middle East go bust, there will be half a billion Muslims fleeing the desert called the Middle East for better places to live. At least they can't walk here to America, but they can go to Asia, and Europe. I doubt they'll head for Africa.

>Cheer up guys we are only one bad bird flu away from resolution

Doesn't sound like a very pleasant way to exit the planet, but it probably the solution that will prevail.
Roberto Ferrari
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

What about vegetable oils burning in Diesel engines?
I read somewhere about it.
That oil would be a renewable source.
Roberto
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by AnGuy »

>What about vegetable oils burning in Diesel engines?

It takes tons of produce to make a single barrel of vegetable oil, and it takes far more energy to produce it, then the oil produces when consumed. Also consider all of the oil based fertializers used to grow those crops. Any thought of replacing oil with agraculture is an impossible pipe dream.

You have to consider a lot of the talk about renewable energy as just talk. Its just a way for a few entrepreneur to enrich them selfs using gov't subsidies. The gov't in turn supports them because its a way for politicians to get votes from the greens. Everyone is in on it, except the american public.
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Adam Szendrey »

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

It's long , but a good read.
I think it's a bit too pessimistic, and paints a darker future than what will be, but that's just my still faintly sparkling optimism. There are some small errors in it i think (inflating some problems too much).
Oil is not our only problem...we have abused our planet for too long, now it's going to bite back.

Adam
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Richard Hull
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Richard Hull »

All will be OK with only moderate culture shock if and only if the electricity never, ever disapears or is in any significant way interupted from the outlets in our homes. Every thing is electrical that matters to us currently.

I really believe that all the doom and gloom is effectively upon us now in the form of a slight darkness that preceeds the very dark shadow cast by an approaching giant. We will be dealing with it sooner than we think. There is but little wiggle room left.

Currently salaries in the US are such that $2.50/gallon gas is not impacting most folks by more than a grumble factor. It is the economic collapse that will effectively end the hop in the SUV and bomb down to the corner store mentality. When you don't have work, it is food and shelter and warmth you are worried about, not taking that vactaion trip or even driving at all.

The massive overburden of infrastucture, as mentioned in the first post of this thread, is what makes day to day life smooth. Cripple the infrastructure and you cripple the economy and all the public debt gets called as infrastructure giants scramble to cover their debts. They cut back on employees and overhead and the domino stack is put in motion. It won't be a matter of trimming the fat, it will be a matter of not letting billions become too lean and take to the streets.

The modern solution to not enough purchasing power due to no raises, limited funds or too many debts is to get another credit card. This is viewed as a shot in the arm for any personal or family economic shortfall. It will all come home to roost soon enough.

It will all relate to the collapse and or instability of the overarching infrastructure. This is the weak link in the debt chain scheduled to reduce our current lifestyle to a mere shadow of its former self.

Richard Hull
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Well it is a fact , that our economy is fossil based. Problem is that all those trucks, and freight ships are mostly diesel fired. Also many freight trains are pulled by diesel powered locomotives. Airplanes use kerosene. And so on. A nuclear plant needs it's supply of fuel, and generally goods need to be distributed. Also a lot of generally used materials are derived from oil. These points bother me a lot. Even if our economy would be healthy, wirthout oil it would collapse, given that no steps are taken a good time before oil prices itself into the skies. But it's already too late..and that's the other problem that bothers me a lot...
It's not just about the US it's about the whole world, it's a global crisis. Europe has a relatively stable economy, but it's mostly dependent on foreign oil, just like the US. Many say (just like you Richard), that we are at the beggining of an exponential curve.
This article speculates, that this year might be the last year of cheap oil. I wonder how will things really turn out.

Adam
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Richard Hull
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Richard Hull »

Let us go back a few hundred years when the infrastructures of today didn't exist. "Der Bauer" (german, meaning farmer or peasant farmer) was more of less self sufficient in a number of ways, especially if he was fortunate enough to own his own little chunk of land. So, there were the rich and the dirt poor and in between stood Der Bauer.

As the industrial revoltution began, the dirt poor that might luck into opportunity or the Bauer who left the farm might make his way into a proto-middle class/working class of people as supporting infrastructures like banks merchants, shippers and haulers needed ever more personnel as their businesses expanded. The church was no longer the number one employer.

Certainly by 1800 there was a burgeoning middle and upper middle class in the world as education became recognized as a stepping stone out of abject poverty. By the late 1800's there were vast stratifications created within the middle classes from the lowest common laborer to the skilled laborer, to the clerks, secretaries and lower level managerial positions on up to the upper middle class living and working as upper level managers, doctors, lawyers, scientists, teachers or owning their own small businesses creating even more infrastructure.

The twentieth century heralded an explosion in infrastructure as technology went totally nuts. The middle class from its lowest rungs to its highest levels far out numbered the poor and the rich within any industrialized nation. This meant ever higher standards of living for all, as all in such countires became totally inmeshed in infrastructure and ever more dependent upon it.

The worlds resources were tapped to support the richest nation's infrastructures which it could easily do as most of the world still remained ignorant and lived in crushing poverty not far removed from how their forebearers lived 300 years ago.

Probably right after world war II as all the world became aware of how everyone else lived thanks to instant and global communications, Many of the "lesser", "supplier nations" wanted their piece of the pie. After a lot of independance fights to free themselves from the last of empire colonial rule and the subsequnce despot and nutball rulers, they come into th 21st century as rich and eager nations with their own growing middle classes consuming and spending just as their distant idols in the "free world" do.

More infrastructure is heaped on and the older industrialized nations now find themselves have to pay big money for the earth borne treasures of these distant lands that used to be cheap as one stagnant despot could be happy with far less than a modern entire nation will require to grow and expand.

So everyone finds that the rich nations have used and are continuing to use the bulk of the world's resources just to maintain a way of life and the valuable infrastructures so necessary to keep the bulk of their people in the status quo.

The meanest intelligence can see that this can't continue and that the infrastructure will collapse back to a certain lower level of performance and capability leaving many out of work and starving or worse in the streets creating a total breakdown of the social order all because they feel nearly instantly disposessed and lost for reasons their little minds can't fathom. They need and will find many suitable scapegoats that may or maynot be among the guilty for they themselves will bear a huge responsibility for most of the problems which will be debt related.

In the end, Der Bauer might once again be the man in the catbird's seat. He needs little or no infrastructure and little or no cash to survive. What he needs, he can sell his goods to acquire, as all about him scream the sky is falling. I hope the fall doesn't throw us that far back, but one never knows how bleak and black it will become. It will all depend on how irretrievably damaged parts of the infrastucture are and the period required to regain a fiscally sound society based on living and having much less than we enjoy today.

In a world where total isolation and self-sufficiency is looked at with suspicion and bemusement, such a lifestyle might be the one to have in future as many have already put their comments down here in favor of.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Adam Szendrey »

It's just that i'm a bit affraid, that it's too late for me. How much time do i have left before the collapse? A year? Five years? Ten years? Maybe more? Or maybe just a month? Who can really tell?
Becoming self sufficient after living in a city all my life, is quite challenging. I hope i can manage.

Adam
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Richard Hull
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Richard Hull »

I don't think I would go paranoid with fear, but prepare in a number of simple ways based on what I can secure easily, now, that will represent true wealth and value in hard times.

A set of good hand tools would be a must, power tools might not be of any value. Assemble a number of photovoltaics that can be cobbled to at least charge storage batteries if not power things outright. A lot of things that are good for storm power outages are a bare minimum, but imagine the outage is for weeks or months and prepare accordingly. I prefer a deep cycle lead acid battery for emergency power with daytime photovoltaic recharge. 12 volt incandescent spot lighting, Cold Cathode lighting coupled with LED lighting. A small 4-5" B&W 12v TV and a transistor all band radio. Lay in a stock of canned goods that you rotate through as you buy groceries each week with the older material slowly sliding forward to be consumed as the new stuff is retocked from the rear.

DO NOT RELY ON A GAS GENERATOR! It chews up gas and the gas supply might drop to zero. Rely on the sun and use power modestly.

For Americans, guns and lots of ammo is considered a must have for serious bad times. While they could actually be taken from you and used on you, those hard bitten enough to use them when in dire straits to protect themselves and their loved ones will prevail. I pray it never comes close to that. Remember, ammo and guns ARE money and ARE real wealth in any severe crisis as are useful heavy tools, i.e., axes, shovels, hoes and picks, sledges, handsaws, etc.

Obtain a small propane stove and gas lantern. Lay in a large stock of small propane cylinders. I keep a 5 gallon can of kerosene on hand as well as a 5 gallon can of gas. Candles and matches are a "must have" as well as simple first aid supplies. I figure that if you can survive the first two months of a major crisis, it might mellow a bit as the government and or barter situations come into play.

In the absense of law and order, local protection groups will form. Again this is a draconian scenario that, hopefully, will never occur.

Again, it is those little, simple, easy things that will mean so much in emergencies of all types. Small outlays of your current wealth into these areas slowly over time will build up a wall of confidence in your chances for weathering a quarter year of uncertainty and loss of power.

This is not paranoia but common, simple wisdom.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Mike Veldman
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Mike Veldman »

I'd like to augment Richards list by suggesting you stockpile a textual library of "how to do it" materials. I suggest textual because the internet is not on the top of the list for restoration. It might depend upon your geographical area or living situation or percieved needs some just exactly what you choose, but I'd suggest information on every basic topic available, but especially basic survival skills, personel hygene and emergency medicine, food growing and storage, basic construction, water purification and the like. Even more advanced material on heat and air systems (HVAC), commercial water and power distributon systems, telephone systems, radio and tv, engines, generators and motors, formulaes for domestic cleaning chemicals, metals and fabrication, power and heat generation methods. These may never see use because your area may not degenerate that far, but in case of a natural disaster during the man made disaster, maybe.
Having knowledge not only makes your life a little more livable, it makes you valuable to others who do not, but may have something you need to trade. Or it might give the local warlord a reason to let you live, or worse conscription into government service.

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I tried to contain myself, but I escaped.
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by SJSVOB »

I've always been a fan of post-apocalyptic movies and novels. I recently watched a new french film "Time of the Wolf". I noted it won some film festival awards. It begins just after a collapse that is never explained. The film focuses on a woman trying to survive with her daughter and young son. For anyone interested in survivalism I recommend it.

I'm not nearly as well equipped as I would like to be but I believe it just plain common sense to follow the boy scout motto and "be prepared". The supermarkets are crazy enough around DC when snow is in the forecast, let alone a nuclear winter, plauge or food shortage.

Over anything else for survival situations I recommend securing a source of drinking water. I like to backpack alot and I have peace in mind of knowing that my gear for this hobby would help me in any catastrophe. I love my portable water filters. I've noticed there are some new models available which use UV light and can be powered by rechargable batteries.

-Stephen
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by karen123 »

Mike Veldman wrote:I'm curious what the draw is to your little town. LIke I'm curious what the draw is to the one I live in. The living and growing, and the infrastructure conditions you describe are similar. Our major industry is the university, with a few minor others, but the people are moving in like crazy. Land prices in town can run to 12k an acre, close outside, 4k an acre, ten miles out, west, south or north 2.5k an acre, east is a little less at 2k. We bought ten acres east of town in 96 and paid 1k an acre for it. Some close friends bought 35 acres two miles further east of us and paied 1.5k, but they have frontage on a state highway, we're a mile from the highway. Within six months of our purchase the guy we bought from offered us 1.5k to buy it back. But very few sale signs stay up even in the rural areas for long. When I moved into this house twenty years back it was pretty rural, I was on the eastern outskirts of town. I built a raised deck 12' above the patio on the east side of my house to sit and look through my telescopes. I did this to clear the tree line south of me. I could look to the east, north and south and not see a light. Now the entire panorama is dotted with yard lights. So I drive ten miles east to the new place to look at the stars, but in the last ten years the dots on the horizon have been growing. I guess a lot of people like me are moving to the country.

mike
You built a raised deck 12' above the patio on the east side of the house to sit and look through your telescopes, so how many days it took in making of the deck?
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

karen123 wrote: I guess a lot of people like me are moving to the country.
...and bringing the city with them. <*sigh*>

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Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Frank Sanns »

When things go south, books, knowledge, property, belongings all become meaningless. When the masses run out of food and water, everything that you have will be theirs. You can stockpile food and ammunition but will be no match for what follows. Enjoy life now while you can. Odds are really good that you will die before you starve. This is true of both paths.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Richard Hull
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Richard Hull »

Well, before the last two posts, it was 2005 in this thread. Along came 2008 and what is now known as the "great recession".

A number of trillions of yen, euro's and dollars vanished. Holders of GM stock, once the gold standard, got nothing as GM was bailed out by the government and re-organized as GM LLC. They got to issue new stock as a new company, making there old stock become "GM liquidation" which went from $20 per share to zero in a few months. Thousands and thousands of "Po' Fokes" took out NINJA, (No Income No Job or Assests), loans in the bloated housing market under federally backed Fanny May and Freddie Mack created tens of thousands of homeless folks in foreclosures. ("A home for all in America including the poor"). The banks took back homes they could not sell! Po's fokes back out in de cold.

The term "too big to fail" was coined and the government only allowed a few big companies and firms to fail, but floated all the rest on a pile of federal debt. Credit card debt was out of control as the consuming public amassed tremendous personal debt.....They figured if big companies can thrive and run on debt, so can we.

The federal dollar bailout "lifeboat", in 8 years, has seen the national debt double!

Now, eight years later, we are told we are in recovery. Phooey! We are in recovery only because we are back doing the same thing all over again. The nice, new, thriving house of cards hums along as people load up their credit cards again buying things they can't afford and the stock market heats to a red heat of over priced bloated stock issues. Massive debt, (account receivables) are now a great asset again, because everyone owes everyone else and all know they dare not call all of the debt owed them in as due and payable or the house will fall.

BOHICA!! (Bend over, hear it comes agian.)

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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