NIF Again?

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Richard Hull
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NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hull »

The article in the recent IEEE spectrum notes that NIF, (National Ignition Facility), is just about ready to come on line. Way late and way over budget...surprise, surprise!

See article at

http://spectrum.ieee.org/mar09/7887

Thanks to Chris Bradley for the URL.

There is a lot of fluff and slipage in the article. They claim that the facility got into overrun cost issues in 1999 and that the project management was gutted. This sounds almost casual.

What happened was that the head of the entire project lied about his qualifications, many dept. heads brought in unqualified, out of work buddies, etc. The actual design and fabrication of some components had never even been attempted, but was only theoretically doable, and on and on. The project money went down the usual ratholes.

A huge GAO report of a couple of hundred pages, following an investigation, showed gross mishandling of the enitre project, misappropriation of funds and note was made that the major optical fabricators, when queried, were not even sure they could make certain components at all, much less for the sums predicted by the folks originally pushing the entire idea to congress!

So, there was an effective re-start of the project and a couple of extra billions were put on the burner to help fully cook this turkey. Of course, that sum is now miniscule in the great 2009 "change you can believe in" money parlance where 3 millions of millions are forecast to just hold status quo.

NIF will, at first, be used for a show of fusion energy possibilities inorder to create a super piece of fluff, up front, and then go underground or slip beneath the waves as it gets down to the nitty-gritty of what it was really put up for......perfecting, improving and making better thermonuclear weapons for the stockpile. It must be remembered that stockpile stewardship was its "mission-one goal". Fusion energy research was a mere pie-sweetener added to sway reluctant senators and congressmen.

I will be most curious about the lifespan of the huge multi-hundred pound blocks of glass used as frequency doublers or triplers in each laser. There were extreme issues related to the manufacture and longevity of these multi-million dollar optical components. I think several varied and special optical elements were needed for each laser!

Oh well, nothing to see here folks, lets keep it moving along.

For those interested in the original government pubs check out.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8174&hilit=nif#p57846


Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Chris Bradley
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Chris Bradley »

A little browsing today lead me into a couple of web pages that give a thorough account of NIF, for anyone who wanders into the forum and remains confused over its mission and history.

So I thought I'd pin up these in-depth links as a point of reference for those interested enough:

http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nif2/findings.asp

http://fire.pppl.gov/ICF_Happer2.PDF

The second one is the 1990 "Review of the Department of Energy’s Inertial Confinement Fusion Program", and noteworthy and utterly clear is the paragraph atop of page numbered 3 (page 11 of the pdf)

>The technical goal of DOE’S program in ICF is to produce small thermonuclear explosions in the laboratory. The potential military uses of these explosions include extending capabilities to simulate the effects of nuclear weapons on hardware that must function in a nuclear environment, exploring the basic atomic physics and hydrodynamics important for weapons design, developing instrumentation and techniques to study full-scale nuclear tests, and exploring advanced weapons concepts. The potential long-term civilian application of ICF is energy production.
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hull »

Thanks Chris for the updates. As the British would say, tongue-in-cheek.....Absolutely brilliant!! What a show, indeed! Software that is used to read the NIF results fails to postdict known experimental work with underground capsules.... and on and on.

Restricted to 33% of its design power due to possible damage to its own optics.....
Peer review failures all along the line.....
All limiting even its role in the stewardship program for which it was truly designed.....

The beat goes on and we probably are being shielded to a degree inspite of this expose'.

I like the bit about fusion's future success once again receeding off into the distance in spite of the money already spent and yet to be spent on NIF.

The troubled world of fusion stumbles about in an already crippled economy where even government officials are admitting to several more years of bleak, yet hopefully slow and agonizing recovery. All of this, provided nothing else "double-dips" us.

That lucky donkey is looking more like the fabled relief column that was supposed to have been sent to the Alamo. Like Mafeking, "Fusion is besieged" with blunder and mischance.
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hester »

Don't get me started... Some hopeful individuals (a place at the trough?) are talking about a version of this turkey replacing the flashlamp drive with laser diodes. This actually makes a certain amount of sense, but it doesn't address the high stress on optical components due to the sheer energy/radiant flux.
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Frank Sanns »

Chris Bradley wrote:

>
> >The technical goal of DOE’S program in ICF is to produce small thermonuclear explosions in the laboratory. The potential military uses of these explosions include extending capabilities to simulate the effects of nuclear weapons on hardware that must function in a nuclear environment, exploring the basic atomic physics and hydrodynamics important for weapons design, developing instrumentation and techniques to study full-scale nuclear tests, and exploring advanced weapons concepts. The potential long-term civilian application of ICF is energy production.


So what are they saying in this paragraph? Rhetoric, hype, misdirection, and a few other adjectives. Normal state of affairs I would say.

"simulate the effects of nuclear weapons on hardware that must function in a nuclear environment" The LANSE neutron source is already set up for that or EMP facilities so why even include this?

"exploring the basic atomic physics and hydrodynamics important for weapons design and developing instrumentation and techniques to study" (paraphrased) nuclear events " Bingo. This is the only use for this facility.

The other very interesting part is the use of photons to do so. Photons are lousy at momentum transport. Why choose them? I have my own theories. The accepted answer is because in thermonuclear weapons it is reported that photons (x-rays) do the compression. Inconsistencies here that are just partial evidence of what is really going on. The science that is done here is very different that what will be in the public domain in the next 50 years. Misdirection at its finest.

Frank Sanns
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hull »

There was an interim report in the mid first decade here. It noted that the DOD nuke design boys were so disheartened by their promised NIF failure to be ready at schedule, that they were already finding work arounds to such a degree that if delays continued, the strategic stockpile stewardship goal would be moot!

Thus, the hot neutron source devices and other already dones and quick kludges have obviated a significant amount of the DOD's needs established prior to NIF's design specs.

As the 1990 report noted, the recommendation at that time by the review committee based on what they saw was that NIF would probably only be good for DOD work and not for useful research into fusion energy or power...........Well even that has largely been worked around by 2011!

No doubt, some fun and useful stuff can still be done, but the overall original goals are all pretty much in the dust. Add the software screw ups and other gotchas plus a lot more money and you might turn a nearly useless facility into just a bad one.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Rich Feldman
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Rich Feldman »

When they decommission it, will any of us still be around to get the surplus high-voltage pulse discharge capacitors? IIRC they have bought and installed 300 megajoules worth. As a taxpayer I feel entitled to at least one of them.
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hester »

Do you have a forklift?
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hester »

This topic came up some time ago, and I was amused by someone (search!) venting a desire for a big slab of that lovely Nd-doped laser glass for use as a high-tech coffee table. Lest I rant on, I'm biting my tongue...
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Kreso »

Dear Mr. Hester,

"And each of those 192 lasers uses 16 of those coffee-table-top size amplifier slabs. They are a beautiful neodymium pink-purple colour -- offcuts and seconds show up as display items at optical conferences (like at Photonics West - Moscone Center, Jan 23-28. I'll be there.)

Interestingly, the underlying technology is readily (as in commercially off the shelf) available. One I have operates on almost exactly the same principle and produces 5 megawatts in a 7 nanosecond pulse, only about 8 orders of magnitude less than the NIF . It's more portable though - I can carry it in my car."

From: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/4196928046/

Already discussed on the forum.

Kind Regards,
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Chris Bradley »

This was published today at the USPTO, and I attach it here, for information.

[...I am tempted to read more into this than I should, so I'll let you reach your own conclusions? ]


>>>>>>>

United States Patent Application 20110286563

Moses; Edward I.; et al. November 24, 2011
Control of a Laser Inertial Confinement Fusion-Fission Power Plant

Abstract
A laser inertial-confinement fusion-fission energy power plant is described. The fusion-fission hybrid system uses inertial confinement fusion to produce neutrons from a fusion reaction of deuterium and tritium. The fusion neutrons drive a sub-critical blanket of fissile or fertile fuel. A coolant circulated through the fuel extracts heat from the fuel that is used to generate electricity. The inertial confinement fusion reaction can be implemented using central hot spot or fast ignition fusion, and direct or indirect drive. The fusion neutrons result in ultra-deep burn-up of the fuel in the fission blanket, thus enabling the burning of nuclear waste. Fuels include depleted uranium, natural uranium, enriched uranium, spent nuclear fuel, thorium, and weapons grade plutonium. LIFE engines can meet worldwide electricity needs in a safe and sustainable manner, while drastically shrinking the highly undesirable stockpiles of depleted uranium, spent nuclear fuel and excess weapons materials.

Inventors: Moses; Edward I.; (Livermore, CA) ; de la Rubia; Thomas Diaz; (Alamo, CA) ; Latkowski; Jeffery F.; (Livermore, CA) ; Farmer; Joseph; (Tracy, CA) ; Storm; Erik; (Walnut Creek, CA) ; Abbott; Ryan P.; (Fremont, CA)
Assignee: LAWRENCE LIVERMORE NATIONAL SECURITY, LLC, Livermore. CA
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Frank Sanns »

These people are really morons for publishing this. Really. You can quote me.

Frank Sanns
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Chris Bradley »

http://optics.org/news/3/1/37

"Deputizing for NIF director Ed Moses in a Photonics West 2012 plenary talk, Dunne said that the ignition campaign was now in its latter stages. “We are now in a position to say with some confidence that ignition will happen in the next 6-18 months,” stated the former head of the HiPER European laser fusion project, adding that he felt personally that the breakthrough was likely to happen in around nine months."

(...enuf said!!)
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Steven Sesselmann
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Steven Sesselmann »

How on earth do they intend to harness the energy from this devise, if by some fluke a small amount of the fuel actually ignited?

My guess is that the next announcement will be that the experiment was an overwhelming success and that they now have so much data it will take years to fully analyze it.

Ooh, and that fusion power is just around the corner.

Steven
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https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Sesselmann - Various papers and patents on RG
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Richard Hull
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hull »

Ignition at NIF!!!?

What is ignition for them?

Start the reaction and keep it going ala putt-putt boat laser pulsing?

As usual, real soon now. They gotta' keep th' hype going so that funding can keep comin' in to the joint. Their kids college education depends on it!

Fusion is, indeed, the energy of the future.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Doug Coulter »

Yeah, it's job security. Those in the know realise that NIF is a nuclear weapons stewardship program someone sometimes spins as a fusion project. That's not what it's for now, and it never was. It's a bomb simulator so we can do "tests" without violating the test ban treaty.

Saying something is going to happen in 6-18 months - a 3::1 range, is saying "we don't have a clue".
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
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Chris Bradley
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Chris Bradley »

More NIF fluff;

http://www.nature.com/news/laser-fusion ... ne-1.10175

..even Nature has been roped in to do some dead horse flogging!!

I'm struggling to identify any new, salient facts from the article. Unusually vacuous, for Nature's editorial.
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hull »

Putt-putt boat fusion, as I term it, is a joke as currently presented by NIF. The facility is a 5 Billion dollar investment and was not made to harvest any energy even if ignition occurs. This seems doubtful due to instabilities within the plasma sapping the Herculean laser energy at just that crucial moment. Sound familiar? So close.....

It was suggested by some luminary within the article that we look at other methods of ICF? What other methods? Hmmm.... Sounds like more money to me.

Even at 5 billion, they can't putt-putt fast enough due to the design of NIF. What would a full station doing this putt-putt, to transmission tower, to wall outlet cost, assuming all goes swimmingly? If this thing does ignite and fuse in one of the "putts", I hope the data is published on the total energy needed to make it happen versus the total energy that is actually created. My guess is that ignition alone will be the big news and we will be told not to worry our pretty heads about the details and other minutia.

Thanks for posting this (update??), Chris.

I still posit that no living entity reading this now will ever live to see one watt of classical fusion energy ooze out of a home wall outlet.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Chris Bradley
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Chris Bradley »

http://www.nature.com/news/laser-lab-sh ... ds-1.11745


This bit is perplexing - did folks ever seriously believe the sales pitch that it was about successfully demonstrating principles of a fusion power plant?!

"After an unsuccessful campaign to demonstrate the principles of a futuristic fusion power plant, the world’s most powerful laser facility is set to change course and emphasize its nuclear weapons research."

'change course'? .. hmmm ...
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by RobertTubbs »

Somewhere out there is a person actually shocked by this.

RT
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Richard Hull
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hull »

The primary purpose for NIF that got congressional funding was "strategic stockpile stewardship". The fusion power bit was just a pot sweetener. Now that the ICF goal is over, they can really get down to doing what they do best, what the device was designed for, and quit lying about the putt-putt boat, laser based, fusion energy. This will allow them to dismiss a large portion of the hangers-on theoretical fusion energy physicists and bring in good qualified nuclear weaponeers.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Mike Beauford
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Mike Beauford »

Well Richard, you called it again. A day late and a dollar short! Here's the update to the NIF not working out so well now.

http://www.nature.com/news/laser-fusion ... rn-1.12016
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hull »

My rant about this debacle goes back to the old Songs.com (1990's) and the GAO report about failures in the timetable and appropriations issues for NIF. Just another make-busy project for fusion energy folks and weaponeers. Billions in the hole and we now know how to definitely NOT attain ignition in a putt-putt boat fashion.

And........Just like cold fusion..........no useful fusion here, either.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Chris Bradley
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Chris Bradley »


An article in IEEE spectrum...

http://online.qmags.com/IEEESM12818089/ ... pg24&mode2

(Don't know if this is behind a paywall, but I shrunk the URL and this seems to work generically.)
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Re: NIF Again?

Post by Richard Hull »

Thanks for the IEEE piece. A rather well done general article.

I note old Bob Hirsch effectively poop-pooped its contribution to fusion and stated it looks like it won't even add to fusion knowledge and that the stewardship issue is pretty much "janitorial work".

Even the weaponeers are questioning its value for their work and tend to note that it can just verify what is pretty much already worked out and don't see it contributing mightily to better weaponry.

NIF just came to the party too late, overbudget and without a firm mission in the end. A great terawatt toy, for the most part.

As it dragged into completion, the weaponeers, it turns out, found work-arounds and its fusion goal fell short, which is not all that important as all the fusion goals fall short. No news there.

Oh well.............

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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