Trinitite- activity is zero?

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Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by myID »

Hi-

just bought a Trinitite sample on ebay. Tried to measure something... Seems to be not active at all. Sure I was not expecting it to glow in he dark but still. Did I just buy "some thing that looks like it could look" ??

Thanks
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Richard Hull
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

If the piece is pretty and green then its activity will be very, very low. Such pieces might never show up on a metal tubed GM counter using an analog meter readout. You will need a mica windowed GM counter! I have about 1000 pieces of Trinitite on hand now and am embarking on a study of the material to some significant degree.

There are generalities related to Trinitite that I have worked out over the last few weeks of study and working the material. Several other folks who are trinitite experts are in total agreement with the listing shown below.

This is not definitive as I am still running numerous radiological survey's and other activities to put a fine point on this.

We can say the following with great confidence.

1. On all Trinitite specimens, the larger the surface area, the higher the count. (stands to reason)
2. The more stunning and beautiful a piece is, the lower will be the count for any giving specimen's surface area. A lovely, jade green, glossy specimen that is uniform throughout will read very low, often under 200-300 cpm over background
3. All counting must be done with a mica windowed GM counter to allow even the alpha to be counted. A good digital counter should be attached so that 10 minute counts can establish an honest background count. The mica window must be less than 1cm from the top of the specimen. NOTE* The underside of all specimens can read 10X to 50X lower than the top side. The top side is the pretty, green side and is often domed. The bottom side is always gray when properly cleaned and rather flat with withist pebbles often enbedded in it. A 2" pancake GM detector is almost a must have item.
4. The hottest pieces are disgustingly ugly, unappealing, and a great diappointment to the collector of pretty mineral specimens. The hotest pieces have their domed top sides covered by what looks like a dried wash of mortar mix and are as gray in color as the bottom of the piece. Sometimes a little green shows through but doesn't help the look of the piece at all. The top side of these hot specimens can often only be discovered by the characteristic "doming" noted above
5. A few rather hot specimens that are rather glossy and pretty contain the gray specs all within the surface and it looks as if the pretty green has been salted, ready for eating. However, the hottest of the hot specimens are almost pure gray with perhaps only traces of green.
6. All trinitite is green at the core! Surface greens range from light green to a green so black that the green is only a trace. Most pretty trinitite is a darker jade green in color. This is the most prized by collectors.
7. All trinititie is broken at the edges. When viewed edge on, it looks like a beautiful emerald crystal sponge with large air pockets like baked bread.
8. Some rare pieces of trinitite will float! (density less than one and a number of pieces are almost neutrally bouyant or sink slowly in water.
9. Black inclusions are attributed to iron and steel from the vaporized tower, while lovely brick red inclusions that can even look ruby like in the green melt is attributed to copper from the site's vaporized wiring and signal lines.
10. Gamma spectrograhic analysis and geiger counter surveys have shown that only the following items can contribute to a radiological examination in a significant way. It order of decending activity.


Americium 241 (gamma , alpha)
Cesium 137 (beta)
Baruim 137 (gamma) Cesium daughter product
Strontium 90 (beta)
Europium 152 (gamma)
Cobalt 60 (gamma)
Possible Uranium and daughter components from bomb's tamper (alpha, beta)

11. I have found that after washing trinite in a mild acid solution and using a tooth brush to scub it, then neutralizing it in a mild base and rinsing and drying it, NONE of the original alpha activity is lost!! This means all surface alpha was long ago washed off in the rain that fell between 1945 and 1952 when the bulk of all the trinite that is for sale was removed from the bomb site. There is a real fascinating story here regarding the original surreptitious removal of all the public domain trinitite for those who care to investigate. We have one single man to thank for our having any trinitite at all to buy or sell.

12. Virtually no amount of cleaning of dirty trinitite will wash off any of its radiation. This includes a toothbrush scrubbing of pieces soaked in Oxalic acid for 20 minute and neutralized in a mild caustic wash and then rinsed off in water. (I have measured the evaporated residues from the acid and caustic washes used to clean up to 40 specimens at one time to find virtually no activity present)

I am investigating to see if most of the Beta activity is due to the uranium daughter Protactinium (Pa234). After all, there was tons of U tamper in the device.

The light grey covering of the hottest pieces may contain 90% of the piece's activity. Without this over coating, I fear the piece might just be another pretty piece of trinitite. We will see.

I have found that by careful counting, using my 2" mica windowed, pancake and digital counter, lovely green specimens larger than a quarter coin can read about 200-300 cpm above background. At the opposite end of the spectrum a rotten, ugly, gray piece of rubble, the size of a tiny pea, will read 4500 cpm over background. I hope to understand this mystery before my work is over, or, at least develop a theory.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by myID »

Hi Richard-

I have just a crappy GM counter, so I always use scintillation counters. Checked the count rate- almost no difference and also did a spectrum analysis with almost no difference to background...

Thanks anyways
Roman
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

Trinite is still too undervalued to try and fake it, just yet. Given another 100 years and faked Trinitite will abound, once the fission products have faded to virtual obscuirty.

You should take a pix of your specimen and post it. Wash it carefully to get rid of any dirt and debris. I use a wash of weak oxalic acid and, with latex gloves on, gently tooth brush it to remove any rust stains on the piece. I next transfer it to a baking soda bath to neutralize the mild acid. and finally to a warm water bath to rinse it. Once cleaned, the piece will take on a new life of its own. BE CAREFUL!! The stuff breaks easily. Be very gentle.

Your piece may have already been cleaned prior to purchase.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
myID
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by myID »

Hi Richard-

here some pics- not too impressive But I guess it was cleaned before I got it....

Anyways-
Greets
Roman
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trinitite top.JPG
trinitite bottom.JPG
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Doug Coulter »

Richard,
I can kinda back up one of your observations. BillF brought over a pretty
green sample that we tested and found it to be little if anything over background
here. Haven't tested the other sort, and our measurement would have
taken 10% or more over background to register positive.
Just a data point.
Pic of it if anyone wants the bandwidth.
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
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Richard Hull
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

The historic nature of Trinitite makes it a unique treasure to more than just the average mineral collector. Radiologically, it is not very interesting as it is not something to make a GM counter sing like as a nice chunk of uraninite or as pretty as Carnotite or Torbernite.

Maybe someone here can fill in the blanks for me. I was assuming that the tamper/reflector of the Trinity gadget was made of DU, but have learned that the tamper reflector, "tickling the tail" experiments in 1945 were done not with DU, but Tungsten carbide! Did they use WC in the gadget?! It would seem amazing to do all your criticality experiments with one substance and then build a bomb around another.

If they used WC that might explain why little U is found in Trinitite. It just seems odd that a ton or more of U tamper is not seen radiologically in trinitite. Little of any tamper is burned. Almost all is just vaporized.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by hjerald1 »

Hi Richard,
According to "Atom Bombs" by John Coster-Mullen, page 47: in discussing
the plutonium capsule loading into the interior of the Trinity gadget, "the capsule did stick as it entered the uranium tamper". (This was due to the heat of the plutonium in the capsule causing the capsule to expand so it would not go in all the way until waiting a period of time for the parts to cool....I guess from ambient air cooling of the capsule surface as the Pu core would certainly not cool!)
I read this to mean that U was actually used in the Trinity Gadget (as well as in Fat Man........ which is described on page 39).
At least some portion of the U was consumed in energetic neutron fission of the U-238, which was stated to have contributed ~20% to the yield of the Hiroshima device.
Jerry
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by hjerald1 »

In Fat Man, the U-238 tamper is reported to have been 9.0" in diameter (am guessing this is not a misprint as this was surrounded by and 18.5" sphere of aluminum (pusher). No thickness was listed for the U sphere, but does seem that your thinking of a ton or more of of U may be an over estimate.
Jerry
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

Jerry, Thanks for your thoughts on this. I will have to check other books that I have to research this a bit more. "Critical Assembly" would be the ultimate reference book. I'll check it.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by hjerald1 »

Some more details of the Fat Man design can be found here. Also a reference to Atom Bombs by Coster-Mullen.
http://www.nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwf ... #nfaq8.1.2

Jerry
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

I have never heard of trinilike, but I bet you it is a poor copy that even without a counter you can spot at a glance as fake. it would take a mighty effort to replicate the stuff to a visual state of near perfection. It certainly could be done, but now is not the time to see someone do it. Currently, you can get some really nice trinitite specimens at a high price of $6.00/gram with the norm being $5.00. Smaller pieces and large rubble go for about $3.00/gram. Trinitite's density is extremely low and a 2-gram sized piece is decent in size.

I had a ton of the red trinitite and still do, but it is simple rust and easily removed with oxalic acid. It seems that Ralph Pray, the original soldier who clandestinely stole ~1500 lbs of the material in 1947 and or Verne Byrnes, who ultimately got most all of it, kept the stuff in a series of steel 55 gallon drums outside and water and moisture did a number on the material through the 50's and 60's as it was sold off into the late 80's. In these drums, the material accumulated vast amounts of surface rust which is seen on both sides of uncleaned pieces over the years. True red trinitite is almost like a ruby crystalline substance or a brick red inclusion within the material, seen most often from the sides. Real red trinitite is not attacked at all by oxalic acid. The above is a well known piece of history by those studying the original source of the public domain trinitite.

Detailed report records show that the ground zero and the trinite mass was quickly surrounded by a fence. So soon was the erection that a number of the fence builders were exposed to 10R or more during the effort. In 1945, site entrance was logged man by man and only badged, specially authorized personnel were allowed within the fenced perimeter. No one else not even guard were allowed near even the outer fence perimeter until 1946!! The trinity site still had over 200 personnel there until late 1946. There was a 24-7 mounted guard unit assigned to the fence perimeter until late 1946 and a daylight 10 hour mounted perimeter guard to the fence into early 1947. By February 1947 there were no personnel remaining in the vicinty of Trinity. Spot checks by guard units continued until 1950. At that time the site was religated to just another part of the bombing range and was left unguarded. It still had the high barbed wire topped perimeter fence and fully paddlocked single gate entrance, however. It was in this time frame that Ralph Pray in July of 1951, liberated the only known major removal of trinitite that would find itself released completely into the public domain.

The federal authorities learned that trinitite was being sold and hung out around Sante-Fe rock and mineral dealers trying to locate the source. Un-successful at their task, the government bulldozed the site and buried, at an undisclosed location, the bulk of the remaining material. In the 1970's a second much more thorough and detailed sanitization to the site took place to make way for its National Historic Monument status. The little remaining trinitite found then is seen today on-site in a large glass and metal enclosure when the site is visited.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by FJS »

I came across a book on Trinitite that is to be updated . The author is Bill Kolb. Can anyone update me as to its availability, ISBN so thjat I can purchase .

Thank You,

Frank J. Spitz
Richard Hull wrote:
> I have never heard of trinilike, but I bet you it is a poor copy that even without a counter you can spot at a glance as fake. it would take a mighty effort to replicate the stuff to a visual state of near perfection. It certainly could be done, but now is not the time to see someone do it. Currently, you can get some really nice trinitite specimens at a high price of $6.00/gram with the norm being $5.00. Smaller pieces and large rubble go for about $3.00/gram. Trinitite's density is extremely low and a 2-gram sized piece is decent in size.
>
> I had a ton of the red trinitite and still do, but it is simple rust and easily removed with oxalic acid. It seems that Ralph Pray, the original soldier who clandestinely stole ~1500 lbs of the material in 1947 and or Verne Byrnes, who ultimately got most all of it, kept the stuff in a series of steel 55 gallon drums outside and water and moisture did a number on the material through the 50's and 60's as it was sold off into the late 80's. In these drums, the material accumulated vast amounts of surface rust which is seen on both sides of uncleaned pieces over the years. True red trinitite is almost like a ruby crystalline substance or a brick red inclusion within the material, seen most often from the sides. Real red trinitite is not attacked at all by oxalic acid. The above is a well known piece of history by those studying the original source of the public domain trinitite.
>
> Detailed report records show that the ground zero and the trinite mass was quickly surrounded by a fence. So soon was the erection that a number of the fence builders were exposed to 10R or more during the effort. In 1945, site entrance was logged man by man and only badged, specially authorized personnel were allowed within the fenced perimeter. No one else not even guard were allowed near even the outer fence perimeter until 1946!! The trinity site still had over 200 personnel there until late 1946. There was a 24-7 mounted guard unit assigned to the fence perimeter until late 1946 and a daylight 10 hour mounted perimeter guard to the fence into early 1947. By February 1947 there were no personnel remaining in the vicinty of Trinity. Spot checks by guard units continued until 1950. At that time the site was religated to just another part of the bombing range and was left unguarded. It still had the high barbed wire topped perimeter fence and fully paddlocked single gate entrance, however. It was in this time frame that Ralph Pray in July of 1951, liberated the only known major removal of trinitite that would find itself released completely into the public domain.
>
> The federal authorities learned that trinitite was being sold and hung out around Sante-Fe rock and mineral dealers trying to locate the source. Un-successful at their task, the government bulldozed the site and buried, at an undisclosed location, the bulk of the remaining material. In the 1970's a second much more thorough and detailed sanitization to the site took place to make way for its National Historic Monument status. The little remaining trinitite found then is seen today on-site in a large glass and metal enclosure when the site is visited.
>
> Richard Hull

Richard Hull wrote:
> I have never heard of trinilike, but I bet you it is a poor copy that even without a counter you can spot at a glance as fake. it would take a mighty effort to replicate the stuff to a visual state of near perfection. It certainly could be done, but now is not the time to see someone do it. Currently, you can get some really nice trinitite specimens at a high price of $6.00/gram with the norm being $5.00. Smaller pieces and large rubble go for about $3.00/gram. Trinitite's density is extremely low and a 2-gram sized piece is decent in size.
>
> I had a ton of the red trinitite and still do, but it is simple rust and easily removed with oxalic acid. It seems that Ralph Pray, the original soldier who clandestinely stole ~1500 lbs of the material in 1947 and or Verne Byrnes, who ultimately got most all of it, kept the stuff in a series of steel 55 gallon drums outside and water and moisture did a number on the material through the 50's and 60's as it was sold off into the late 80's. In these drums, the material accumulated vast amounts of surface rust which is seen on both sides of uncleaned pieces over the years. True red trinitite is almost like a ruby crystalline substance or a brick red inclusion within the material, seen most often from the sides. Real red trinitite is not attacked at all by oxalic acid. The above is a well known piece of history by those studying the original source of the public domain trinitite.
>
> Detailed report records show that the ground zero and the trinite mass was quickly surrounded by a fence. So soon was the erection that a number of the fence builders were exposed to 10R or more during the effort. In 1945, site entrance was logged man by man and only badged, specially authorized personnel were allowed within the fenced perimeter. No one else not even guard were allowed near even the outer fence perimeter until 1946!! The trinity site still had over 200 personnel there until late 1946. There was a 24-7 mounted guard unit assigned to the fence perimeter until late 1946 and a daylight 10 hour mounted perimeter guard to the fence into early 1947. By February 1947 there were no personnel remaining in the vicinty of Trinity. Spot checks by guard units continued until 1950. At that time the site was religated to just another part of the bombing range and was left unguarded. It still had the high barbed wire topped perimeter fence and fully paddlocked single gate entrance, however. It was in this time frame that Ralph Pray in July of 1951, liberated the only known major removal of trinitite that would find itself released completely into the public domain.
>
> The federal authorities learned that trinitite was being sold and hung out around Sante-Fe rock and mineral dealers trying to locate the source. Un-successful at their task, the government bulldozed the site and buried, at an undisclosed location, the bulk of the remaining material. In the 1970's a second much more thorough and detailed sanitization to the site took place to make way for its National Historic Monument status. The little remaining trinitite found then is seen today on-site in a large glass and metal enclosure when the site is visited.
>
> Richard Hull
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

This got wedged into an old post somehow...........

The book on Trinitite, by my good Friend and fellow U mineroligist pal, Bill Kolb, has not been updated or re-released yet.

The first pass of the to-be-finished work is what you have and was a hyper limited release! Under 50 copies, mostly to close friends and associates, plus a few who begged and pleaded. At all events, that first lirttle pre-release is a rarity, consider yourself lucky to have it. It is shaping up, in its final form, to be the definitive work on the subject. No ISBN as of now.

Bill's released book "Living with Radiation, The First 100 Years" is in constant update and a self published effort. I have virtually every iteration of it. About 7 volumes.

FLASH! ..........

I just talked with Bill. Both his books are self published only. They will never have an ISBN unless he is approached by a formal publisher. He is not seeking one either.

By self publishing and publishing in a "print-on-demand" manner, he warrants that at any any instant in time, the buyer gets the most updated iteration.

The Trinitite book you hold is one of only 14 ever printed!! I have one, of course.

Bill has informed me that a massively expanded version should be available within a year as he has to get a number of permission statements to add articles in his book that were written as reports by others on the subject.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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FYI: activity is not zero...

Post by myID »

Hi-

I just checked few days ago with my TBM-3S (pretty sensitive) and it definitely is somewhat active. So I have a nice piece of history. I will measure it with my MCA one day but before this I will have to build a "lead castle"... one day....

Kind regards
Roman
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by FJS »

Mr. Hull,

Thank you for the information. I actually do not have the first trinitite book. I only heard about it from Mr. Derik Bowers.

However, as soon as this book is ready, count me among those who will appreciate his efforts. The hyper-rarety is probably why I could not find ANY source of this book. Self publish is fine but a better desemination would be thru a major publication house. But...whichever avenue is chosen, I will delo with to get a book.

Can you provide me with his e-mail adddress (preferred avenue of contact) and.or phone number so that I can be informed when it is due out.

Thank you,

Frank Spitz

And yes, it was an old thread I piped into but it was my only option and I am glad you replied. Now to get some trinitite pearls and assorted colors beyond the green.
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by David D Speck MD »

Richard,

Have you tried counting any of your specimens in an alpha spectrometer, under reduced atmospheric pressure for maximum alpha sensitivity?

Dave
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

I have used the alpha spec as well as the gamma spec. The alpha activity is low and is characteristic of Uranium only. Again, 90 percent of the mica windowed GM activity is beta from the longer lived isotopes and mostly the Cs137. The best gamma signature is due to the Am241.

Bill Kolb and Jon Rosenstiel have done far better gamma spec work and identified Neptunium, Europium and others. Bill's upcoming re-release of the Trinitite work will be the magnum opus on the material.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Trinity 3 »

Is there any final date for the new book on Trinitite ?

Thank you,

Frank Spitz
Richard Hull wrote:
> I have used the alpha spec as well as the gamma spec. The alpha activity is low and is characteristic of Uranium only. Again, 90 percent of the mica windowed GM activity is beta from the longer lived isotopes and mostly the Cs137. The best gamma signature is due to the Am241.
>
> Bill Kolb and Jon Rosenstiel have done far better gamma spec work and identified Neptunium, Europium and others. Bill's upcoming re-release of the Trinitite work will be the magnum opus on the material.
>
> Richard Hull
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

Well, Like fusion, "real soon now"

I just talked with Bill and he has just finished the new edition of his "Living With Radiation - The First Hundred Years".

He noted that now he is going to get very serious about "Trinitite". His book will be both technical and highly historical in nature. He notes that he has about 2000 pages of data and reports to cull through. In short, he estimates this time next year for the release of the book on Trinitite.

Among the great gems to be found in his book is the story of Ralph Pray. Most who have come to the HEAS event in the past have heard Bill give his well done talk on Ralph Pray and his Trinitite experience.

Bill's book will be the definitive reference on the subject to be sure, just as his Living with radiation is a one of a kind treasure trove.


Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Adam Ingle »

Thank you for checking back about this book. Had I not read this post, I wouldn't have known it existed.

I am also very interested in what information Bill has to say!

Thank you!

Adam Ingle
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Trinity 3 »

Adam,

You are quite welcome. From what I have been told it will be a massive overload of information. I have several Trinitite pieces and am tryin to find the Trinitite pearls, black and red Trinitite but these are elusive. Some red Trinitite are merly Fe2O3 from being stored in metal drums whereas the true red Trinitite is REALLY red. There are also some with blue specs in as well. Googlre trinitite and mineresco will pop up and they have a ggod variety as does Norm Lehrman (The Tektite Source).

Good luck,

Frank
Adam Ingle wrote:
> Thank you for checking back about this book. Had I not read this post, I wouldn't have known it existed.
>
> I am also very interested in what information Bill has to say!
>
> Thank you!
>
> Adam Ingle
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

The red in trinitite is believed to be vaporized copper from the miles of heavy gauge wires in and around the tower that lead to nearby, bunkered recording stations. I have a few pieces with the red blebs in them.

The rust on the old trinitite is readily removed by soaking in concetrated rust remover solutions (bi-sulfites or oxalic acid). I tend to prefer pure, concentrated oxalic acid (deck bleach - Ace hardware stores.)

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Trinity 3 »

Mr. Hull,

Are you selling any of these. As well, I would like to get black trinitite and the pearls if at all possible.

Thank you,

Frank Spitz
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Re: Trinitite- activity is zero?

Post by Richard Hull »

I only have one or two personal specimens with red in them. not for sale. There is a lot of small black inclusions in Trinitite and an occasional pearl. I will have to check my stock. So far as solid black trinitite, I have never seen any.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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