What a bunch of moronic stupidity! New York is passing a law to outlaw geiger counters and any other type of detection equipment from the general population. This is not a joke. Read on, you will be quite amazed.
The author of the law even says people NEED TO GO TO JAIL if they are caught with one.
Mark Rowley
Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
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Mark Rowley
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Jon Rosenstiel
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JohnCuthbert
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Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
A better solution would be free, government-calibrated geigers for everyone who wants one. That way you don't get false alarms because people have accurate detectors and, if there is a dirty bomb, you have lots of people in place who can do monitoring and let you know the real extent of the problem.
Just what sort of idiot dreams up ideas like banning geigers?
Just what sort of idiot dreams up ideas like banning geigers?
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Frank Sanns
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Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
In NY and other some other areas it is already illegal to recieve certain E & M energy signals. A radar detector in the 10 Ghz, 24,Ghz, 33Ghz, and ~400Thz so a presedence is already set so is 800-900mhz cell and soft x-rays start just a little higher in photon frequency.
Other recieving devices like hand held recievers and scanners are also illegal in NY. Stranger things have happened.
Frank S.
Other recieving devices like hand held recievers and scanners are also illegal in NY. Stranger things have happened.
Frank S.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
They may have some difficulty reconciling that law when every cell phone is a radiation detector:
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2008a/0801 ... clear.html
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2008a/0801 ... clear.html
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Frank Sanns
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Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
This is another example of money and time gone bad. Cell phone detectors would never work for a variety of reasons.
For one, detecting bomb grade materials with a crude geiger counter is futile. One needs to know what they are looking for. Complicating the detection would be the HUGE number of false alarms. There are so many sources of rad that the detectors would be constantly going off.
With just my pocket detector and a trip to just about any public place, the thing goes off daily. People that have had nuclear medicine tests are detectable at many times the distance of the hotest U rocks or nuke materials. These people are everywhere. Can you imagine the flood of false alarms that there would be? On a single day in a local casino that had ~500 people, I found six people that were HOT and one that was blazing away from over 40 feet away. Ten nukes collectively would not have been spewing out that much rad. Sure casks of ultra hot rad waste could be detected but big brother already knows were they are and where they are going.
This is another one of those ideas that sounds good on paper.
Frank S.
For one, detecting bomb grade materials with a crude geiger counter is futile. One needs to know what they are looking for. Complicating the detection would be the HUGE number of false alarms. There are so many sources of rad that the detectors would be constantly going off.
With just my pocket detector and a trip to just about any public place, the thing goes off daily. People that have had nuclear medicine tests are detectable at many times the distance of the hotest U rocks or nuke materials. These people are everywhere. Can you imagine the flood of false alarms that there would be? On a single day in a local casino that had ~500 people, I found six people that were HOT and one that was blazing away from over 40 feet away. Ten nukes collectively would not have been spewing out that much rad. Sure casks of ultra hot rad waste could be detected but big brother already knows were they are and where they are going.
This is another one of those ideas that sounds good on paper.
Frank S.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Richard Hull
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Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
My major objection is that it would deny the right of a citizen to secure their own information and collect their own data. This would act to check on government reports of radiation levels in time of emergency. (The powers that be could say all is well or that the rad levels are tolerable when they are not in order to simply calm the doomed masses.
In time of emergency the government's averaged readings would certainly not take in "hotspots". A personal counter would alert the user to such areas and allow them to seek out safer zones to reduce exposure.
This harkens back to the simple civil defense kits and methodolgies of the cold war. Shelters had three types of rad detection gear on hand so that local shelters could form their own safe zones and reliably report levels to authorites.
Richard Hull
In time of emergency the government's averaged readings would certainly not take in "hotspots". A personal counter would alert the user to such areas and allow them to seek out safer zones to reduce exposure.
This harkens back to the simple civil defense kits and methodolgies of the cold war. Shelters had three types of rad detection gear on hand so that local shelters could form their own safe zones and reliably report levels to authorites.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
Well, stupidity abounds.... no region is free of it....It's the universal contaminant.
The only slack you can cut for NY is that they were one of the places that took the hit on 9/11 and that DOES count for something.
To my way of thinking, if you can outlaw radar detectors in automobiles, on the premise that police will not be able to catch speeders, and etc... blah, blah, blah., then it seems to follow that radiation detectors could also be outlawed on the similar premise that you would only have a G-M counter if you were doing "something" illegal with radioactivity. Sounds a lot like the gun control mentality, doesn't it?
So, while moronic, this form of legislative reasoning sounds real good.
The basic Freedom of Information Act probably has bearing on restricting the Government's ability to put this kind of legislation into effect.
If the ACLU wanted to get into something useful, here's a fight to join. The news business, should also be able to see this as a good Op-Ed page interest stoker. In so doing, the public awareness (consciousness?) on radiation issues could possibly be raised and some of the many erroneous perceptions corrected.
I recall, with amusement a moderately heated "discussion" around the dinner table with a sibling and spouse on exactly this issue... Despite being highly educated, professional people, their view was: "Why does a law abiding citizen need a radar detector?"
My point of view was, first because there's no harm in knowing when you are being checked,by radar, whatever your speed. And secondly, who knows what the police are actually doing when they stop you and claim to have clocked you on
"radar". If the PD's, are on the up and up, they should have no qualms about being checked out, by the people they serve.
This country is full of places where local law enforcement plays games with public trust to collect fines. To my mind these sorts should be rounded up and sent to jail, just like any other thief and robber. Raising the standards of fairness, decency justice and accountability, goes with legitimate expectations of high(er) pay.
Just my rant for Monday......Also a Thank You to Mark for the heads up.
Dave Cooper
The only slack you can cut for NY is that they were one of the places that took the hit on 9/11 and that DOES count for something.
To my way of thinking, if you can outlaw radar detectors in automobiles, on the premise that police will not be able to catch speeders, and etc... blah, blah, blah., then it seems to follow that radiation detectors could also be outlawed on the similar premise that you would only have a G-M counter if you were doing "something" illegal with radioactivity. Sounds a lot like the gun control mentality, doesn't it?
So, while moronic, this form of legislative reasoning sounds real good.
The basic Freedom of Information Act probably has bearing on restricting the Government's ability to put this kind of legislation into effect.
If the ACLU wanted to get into something useful, here's a fight to join. The news business, should also be able to see this as a good Op-Ed page interest stoker. In so doing, the public awareness (consciousness?) on radiation issues could possibly be raised and some of the many erroneous perceptions corrected.
I recall, with amusement a moderately heated "discussion" around the dinner table with a sibling and spouse on exactly this issue... Despite being highly educated, professional people, their view was: "Why does a law abiding citizen need a radar detector?"
My point of view was, first because there's no harm in knowing when you are being checked,by radar, whatever your speed. And secondly, who knows what the police are actually doing when they stop you and claim to have clocked you on
"radar". If the PD's, are on the up and up, they should have no qualms about being checked out, by the people they serve.
This country is full of places where local law enforcement plays games with public trust to collect fines. To my mind these sorts should be rounded up and sent to jail, just like any other thief and robber. Raising the standards of fairness, decency justice and accountability, goes with legitimate expectations of high(er) pay.
Just my rant for Monday......Also a Thank You to Mark for the heads up.
Dave Cooper
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JohnCuthbert
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Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
As far as I can see it's a lot worse than gun control.
Limiting people's access to radioactive materials so they can't kill people a la Litvinyenko is like gun control. It has problems but it should work in principle.
Limiting people's access to detectors is like removing the regulations prohibiting carrying concealed weapons. It stops people finding out if the man they see in the street is a radiation hazard. This means he cannot be spotted by the authorities (who will never have the resources to check everyone) until he starts killing people.
Also, whether you like it or not, guns are for killing people, that's the basic idea behind the design. Controlling access to something that's dangerous might be politically unacceptable, it might be impractical, but in theory, it reduces the number of people who get killed. I know you can kill someone perfectly well with a hammer but it's a lot more difficult to go on a killing spree with a hammer than with a machine gun.
How, exactly, do you kill someone with a geiger counter?
It seems to me to be about a zillion times less sensible than gun control.
On the other hand...
There are real reasons for and against gun control.
There are no valid reasons in favour of this proposed legislation.
Let's not get the 2 ideas mixed up.
Limiting people's access to radioactive materials so they can't kill people a la Litvinyenko is like gun control. It has problems but it should work in principle.
Limiting people's access to detectors is like removing the regulations prohibiting carrying concealed weapons. It stops people finding out if the man they see in the street is a radiation hazard. This means he cannot be spotted by the authorities (who will never have the resources to check everyone) until he starts killing people.
Also, whether you like it or not, guns are for killing people, that's the basic idea behind the design. Controlling access to something that's dangerous might be politically unacceptable, it might be impractical, but in theory, it reduces the number of people who get killed. I know you can kill someone perfectly well with a hammer but it's a lot more difficult to go on a killing spree with a hammer than with a machine gun.
How, exactly, do you kill someone with a geiger counter?
It seems to me to be about a zillion times less sensible than gun control.
On the other hand...
There are real reasons for and against gun control.
There are no valid reasons in favour of this proposed legislation.
Let's not get the 2 ideas mixed up.
Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
Only evil people use guns for killing. The rest of us use them for self defense.
I think this is all about the new Miranda warnings police are required to give:
You have the right to remain stupid, everything we can manage will be used against you....
I think this is all about the new Miranda warnings police are required to give:
You have the right to remain stupid, everything we can manage will be used against you....
Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
>Mark Rowley wrote:
> What a bunch of moronic stupidity! New York is passing a law to outlaw geiger counters and any >other type of detection equipment from the general population. This is not a joke. Read on, you will >be quite amazed.
Sensors magazine had an interesting editorial on
this:
http://www.sensorsmag.com/sensors/artic ... ?id=488255
Technically it looks like an Indoor/Outdoor thermometer could
be considered illegal.
Bob Paddock
> What a bunch of moronic stupidity! New York is passing a law to outlaw geiger counters and any >other type of detection equipment from the general population. This is not a joke. Read on, you will >be quite amazed.
Sensors magazine had an interesting editorial on
this:
http://www.sensorsmag.com/sensors/artic ... ?id=488255
Technically it looks like an Indoor/Outdoor thermometer could
be considered illegal.
Bob Paddock
Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
It would not be the first time that a law this boneheaded has gotten innocent people in trouble. I hope that there aren't any collectors of civil defense equipment or anyone who has an old prospecting geiger counter getting arrested.
I have purchased, cleaned up, fixed (if necessary), and recalibrate a number of Geiger counters or other detectors which I then gave away or sold.
One I gave to an 8th grade science teacher in New York. The idea was not to detect dirty bombs but to demonstrate the radioactivity of things like brazil nuts, granite, substitute salt and so on to the students and show that there's always background radiation. Also, to show the effects of shielding.
I also gave her two century lantern mantles, a piece of vaslene glass and a small rock which I found to be much higher than the background (visually it looks like it contains uranium but it might be thorium). She also told me she added an old clock which a student brought in to see if it was radioactive to the collection (he said she could keep it.).
I'm wondering now if I should call her and tell her to send this all back to me, or if perhaps I should go there and get it back. I do not want to violate the law by taking possession of it and transporting it out of the state, but I feel somewhat responsible as I would not want her to get arrested for it because I gave these away to science teachers!
I have purchased, cleaned up, fixed (if necessary), and recalibrate a number of Geiger counters or other detectors which I then gave away or sold.
One I gave to an 8th grade science teacher in New York. The idea was not to detect dirty bombs but to demonstrate the radioactivity of things like brazil nuts, granite, substitute salt and so on to the students and show that there's always background radiation. Also, to show the effects of shielding.
I also gave her two century lantern mantles, a piece of vaslene glass and a small rock which I found to be much higher than the background (visually it looks like it contains uranium but it might be thorium). She also told me she added an old clock which a student brought in to see if it was radioactive to the collection (he said she could keep it.).
I'm wondering now if I should call her and tell her to send this all back to me, or if perhaps I should go there and get it back. I do not want to violate the law by taking possession of it and transporting it out of the state, but I feel somewhat responsible as I would not want her to get arrested for it because I gave these away to science teachers!
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Carl Willis
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Re: Geiger Counter Possession = JAIL
I think this episode was just a transient spasm of paranoia, of the kind that occasionally besets the woefully under-informed American populace these days but is typically righted in the long term when saner heads prevail.
Radiation detector owners in New York do not need to be worried about anything! They do not need to exert any personal effort to "comply" with the law and thereby legitimize it. If not gone already, it will be soon, because on straightforward Constitutional considerations it does not hold up. Keep in mind, this was a city council thing. City councils routinely pass unconstitutional ordinances infringing on the 1st Amendment in particular because the council members are just too gol-durned stupid. All these mistakes do ultimately is bring derision and expenses upon a municipality and its leadership. Rarely do they even last long enough for a test case to get heard. The sky is not falling here.
-Carl
Radiation detector owners in New York do not need to be worried about anything! They do not need to exert any personal effort to "comply" with the law and thereby legitimize it. If not gone already, it will be soon, because on straightforward Constitutional considerations it does not hold up. Keep in mind, this was a city council thing. City councils routinely pass unconstitutional ordinances infringing on the 1st Amendment in particular because the council members are just too gol-durned stupid. All these mistakes do ultimately is bring derision and expenses upon a municipality and its leadership. Rarely do they even last long enough for a test case to get heard. The sky is not falling here.
-Carl