Aneutronic fusion questions...

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Spencer DePue
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Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Spencer DePue »

Hello everyone, I am designing a hybrid pyroelectric/electronic polywell and I want to know somethings about the detection of aneutronic fusion in the polywell. First question is how would I know besides physically seeing a plasma, that I am getting aneutronic fusion with proton/boron fuel sources. (Detection equipment ideas would be useful) My other question is that if I achieve fusion and find a way to harness it, would the energy generated completely melt all of my electrodes and the excess wires? Please advise.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Dan Tibbets »

What ever you use to power the system (accelerate the electrons), you will needs millions af watts. And to power the copper magnets (or to charge up the superconducting magnets), you will need perhaps more than a million watts. If you are going to create a plasma that can fuse P-B11 at required levels, you will be producing enough waste X- rays to kill your self within minutes (unless very well shielded or far away). There are occasional neutrons produced and at the levels for break even, these would probably be easily detectable, or even very dangerous, though you would have to be careful to be sure they were from P-B11 side reactions instead of contaminating deuterium . The vast majority of fusion products are Alpha particles. These are easy to detect, but the detector would have to be inside the vacuum vessel and would be exposed to lots of electronic noise, thermal loads, etc. Perhaps some type of plastic detector would work (like Cr39).
And, yes, your system would melt into a puddle of metal unless you aggressively cooled the system. The projected cost for a breakeven Polywell is ~ 200 million dollars. This probably includes little or no cooling (except for the magnets- a challenge in itself), as it will probably only run at a few seconds at a time.

Piezoelectric power might deliver high voltage, and perhaps can be scaled up massively to provide the necessary current, but this is a pulsating source, unless you hook up a bunch in parallel with capacitors. And remember, you have to load the piezoelectric power source first by stressing the crystals. This take more power than you get out of the crystals, otherwise you are violating the second law of thermodynamics. Else, why worry about fusion, just use the crystals as your power source.

If you want to only demonstrate a little P-B11 fusion in a Polywell like device, the challenges are tremendously less, but still probably requires a lot of work and probably 10-100,000s of of dollars.

The current EMC2 experiments may be extended to try to demonstrate P-B11 fusion (not breakeven). This is with a 60 cm (?) diameter magnet grid, will require completely different fuel input, and to get to this point, they will have spent $5- 10 million. The electron accelerating power source is one of the simplest requirements to achieve.

If you want to use piezoelectricity , I suspect it might more suited to a Dense Plasma Focus type device, where you want very short high voltage and current power pulses.

Dan Tibbets
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Carl Willis
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Carl Willis »

Spencer:

Applicability of various detection techniques depends on what the goal of the measurement is (qualitative, quantitative, degree of precision) and how intense the reaction is (or is intended to be). As the designer of whatever you have in mind, you would need to clarify those points to get meaningful suggestions.

But first things first. Your second question about harnessing fusion and melting your electrodes from the energy generated makes me wonder how much background research you have done and whether any of the project you are designing has a grounding in physical reality at this point. Our forum has historically gotten very many pronouncements and questions linked to p-B11 fusion, suggesting very limited familiarity with fusion concepts and research in general on behalf of the contributors. The fact of the matter is that NO amateur effort has yet even seriously contemplated p-B11, and few fusion professional fusion research efforts attempt it, for reasons that become obvious when one considers the hazardous chemicals, small nuclear cross-section, and other details of practical relevance.

I should add that the presence of a visible plasma is not an indication of a fusion reaction.

Also, detection issues should be posted to the Neutron and Radiation Detection forum in the future.

-Carl
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Spencer DePue »

Thank you for your input. I know a lot about fusion for someone who is an amateur. However, this is my first fusion attempt. I have been designing this reactor in theory for 3 years now and I am currently 17 years of age. I still need to prove that this reactor will work. The entire design costs under $3000. The majority of the cost is from the pyroelectric crystal, vacuum parts, and custom made steel chamber. According to some basic electronic theory, the wattage could potentially be in the millions range. ( 100000 volts x 60 amps- 6 million watts theoretically). All I need is a lot of lead, highly resistive output wire, and cooling. The reactor will be running for approx. 2 minutes. As much as I make this sound simple, I completely understand the complexity of this achievement.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Carl Willis »

So you have a lofty and ambitious goal--a polywell device driven by a pyroelectric crystal doing p-B11 fusion. Now this is not precluded by any laws of physics, but it's a multidisciplinary project of huge proportions, novel territory on many fronts. If you're serious, wouldn't it make sense to at least organize your project in terms of realistic, sequentially-approachable sub-goals?

For example:

-----------------------------------------------------------

>1. Design a small proof-of-concept "demo" device to make voltage, current measurements on pyroelectric crystals, test your magrid cathode ideas, get a vacuum system in order, learn fabrication techniques
>2. Build a low-power prototype to achieve easily-measurable, non-toxic, high-yield DD fusion, and solve any problems identified
>3. Build a higher-power prototype with further improvements
>[etc.]
>27. Experiment with the p-B11 reaction
>[etc.]
>118. Build a 6-MW power plant
----------------------------------------------------------

Right now, you're talking about detectors for p-B11, you're talking about 6 MW, you're talking about radiation shielding...and like virtually every single p-B11 enthusiast to grace this site before you, there is not a hair of practicality to the approach in evidence. If you'd made it to Step 26 (in my example), then it might make sense to talk about detectors for this reaction. And if you'd made it to Step 117, then it's time to be concerned about millions of watts melting your electrodes.

You're not even to Step 1. Traditionally, even for those of us with less ambition, getting beyond Step 3 is years (and thousands of dollars) in the coming. What do you say? Nobody around here is going to think any less of you or your goals for being a pragmatist and starting at the beginning...in fact, quite the opposite. Save the meltdown talk and the detector issue until their time. Instead, how about describing your work so far in more detail? What does your research plan look like?

-Carl
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Spencer DePue
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Spencer DePue »

Yeah, I guess I am getting a bit ahead of myself.. I do plan to measure crystal voltage/battery amperage in the circuit as a "dry" test with no fusion or vacuum just to see what my real amperage/volts will be. I am somewhat cautious about posting my exact plans because of potential idea theft.. but I hope that those on this website will be trustworthy enough. But I really appreciate the plans, ideas, and general feedback that I am getting here. But even if the potential of my fusion fails at first, I can always work on it until I perfect it.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Starfire »

Search the forums - it has been discused before

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5601&hilit=b11#p34045
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Richard Hester »

I would use a simple fusor at high voltage/lowish currents with a hydrogen fill to see if I could observe the p-B11 reaction at all - that would be a very ambitious first step. R. Hull's comments in the referenced thread on using a drift tube to separate out alphas for detection are well taken - that's something I've also considered.

Introducing the boron in a form that won't kill you, blow up the place, or corrode the insides of your fusor is a big, big problem. The boron hydrides are out for casual experimenters. Check their characteristics if you don't believe me. Boron halides are out due to corrosion/contamination/toxicity issues. What left is an evaporation setup using brute force current or a laser. Evaporation of boron is difficult with a normal setup, as it tends to eat up a lot of the boat materials used. Folks experienced in vacuum evap techniques are invited to chime in, as I'm sure it's done somehow. Ablation with a pulsed laser is the least problematic method I can see, requiring a good window with AR coating. The laser need not be all that ambitious, and one can use the number of hits/second to dole out the necessary boron concentration.

Since the inside of the fusor will eventually get coated with boron, shields and sacrificial windows will be necessary to protect the viewports and feed through insulator.
At any rate, there's enough problems involved to keep a well-heeled amateur busy for a few years. It would be quite a coup just to be able to observe the p-B11 reaction in a fusor, and worth a journal paper somewhere.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Richard Hull »

Wow! This has already gone pretty far afield. A lot of good info has been passed on here. Carl has stated some proper steps in a tongue-in-cheek outline of some of those steps.

The aneutronic fusion of P-B11 is a buzz word that has never been turned into a realized effort by any amateur on the planet. Why a 17 year old is tilting at this windmill when he ought to just do the seocnd most simple fusion in the universe, (D-D fusion), to get some quality time with real, realizable fusion is a mystery to me. In the process he might gain knowledge of just how hard his planned effort is with P-B11.

Rather than be a total looser with a failed P-B11 effort and only say "I failed to do any fusion", he could say I did real D-D fusion and know what real fusion was like and still tried P-B11 fusion and failed due to its inherent cost and difficulties.

To say you are going to do P-B11 in a polywell system which no amateur has ever attempted and succeeded at with simple D-D fusion is a real cast of the net that boggles the mind.

Of course, when one is 17, one feels like anything is possible..........Until one gets tangled up with all the money issues, dangers, technologies involved and securing a vast armada of stuff needed to make those pipe dreams a reality.

Finally, No one here has ever done P-B11 and any suggestions given here are shots into a wilderness that no one has ever roamed in. However, those who do offer advice on P-B11 have done real fusion with there own hands and know that P-B11 is a dark world that demands more than they can muster in dollars and time. These are people with lofty degrees in physics and engineering with regular day jobs who can finance, out of pocket, their fusion efforts here. Yet, these same folks quake in their booties at doing P-B11, not because it is impossible due to the physics, but due to their wallet and the foreknowledge of just what might be involved.

No one here is even willing to make a polywell! This is partly due to costs and partly because they haven't seen any hard evidence of any polywell ever doing any kind of fusion.

You have a costly battle of the highest order ahead of you.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Richard Hester »

I wouldn't say I'm quaking in my boots, but trying p-B11 before even getting D-D fusion is a road to frustration and failure. There are enough roadblocks in the way for the relatively easy D-D fusion to make that a big challenge. Best to try that first and get the obvious problems out of the way before tacking something hideously difficult. The D-D platform can also be used for perfecting the detection scheme needed for the alphas from the p-B11 reaction by using the protons from the D-D reaction. No one from this forum has tried this as far as I know, though some of us have the necessary detectors. The group at U. Wisconsin have detected D-D protons in the course of their experiments with D-He3 (the D-D is a side reaction to the main course of D-He3), so we know it can be done.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Starfire »

Correction Richard - I have played with the p-B11 for years - a Boron salt in a tiny sub-mm size well in a 1/2" tungsten slug down a 2 mtr deep well in a pond - latest problem ( and there has been many ) is with a final chamber - search for B11 in the forums - but I agree it's problematic and taxes patience - I've spent a small fortune chasing the B11 dream - not for the feint hearted nor those who expect quick success.


My Ion Gun head ( proton source ) with glass insulator above the well ;-

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2947&hilit=b11#p12457
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Richard Hester »

Well yeah, but yours is more a gunned approach than a fusor or polywell.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Richard Hull »

The U of W folks used a PIPS or surface barrier detector for proton detection. Apparently it worked OK. PIPs are also used for Alpha spec work. However, using a PIPS in a fusor will probably obviate its future use for spectrowork as they warn about smoke or grease depositions affecting spectro accuracy. The fusor would deposit cathode material all over the detector. The detector would still detect, it just would not do a good job on energy after protratcted periods. As we all know, PIPS detectors are pricey and you need the biased preamp, etc., to make it all go as a detector/counter.

While not getting precise data from PIPS you should easily discriminate against the 40kev electrons impacting it and a multi-mev proton.

Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Spencer DePue »

Theoretically speaking, if you hook up a 12 volt car battery with say 100 amps, and combine it in parallel with a cm by cm z-cut lithium tantalate crystal that is heated in a vacuum to produce 100,000 volts according to the "Observation of nuclear fusion driven by a pyroelectric crystal", you should get the sum of the two amperage sources which is 100 amps + 4 nano-amps = 100.000000004 amps. However, the information that I don't know is if the two separate voltages are added or if the circuit takes the average which in this case would be
100,012 volts / 2 = 50,006 volts. Overall the wattage would be immense during the heating time of the crystal. 50,006 volts x 100 amps = 5,000600 watts. Of course resistance would weaken this wattage, but not by much. I have realized that the polywell may not be the best approach and I should possibly look into dense plasma focus instead.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Rich Feldman »

Spencer DePue wrote:
> Theoretically speaking, if you hook up a 12 volt car battery with say 100 amps, and combine it in parallel with a cm by cm z-cut lithium tantalate crystal that is heated in a vacuum to produce 100,000 volts according to the "Observation of nuclear fusion driven by a pyroelectric crystal", you should get the sum of the two amperage sources which is 100 amps + 4 nano-amps = 100.000000004 amps. However, the information that I don't know is if the two separate voltages are added or if the circuit takes the average which in this case would be
> 100,012 volts / 2 = 50,006 volts. Overall the wattage would be immense during the heating time of the crystal. 50,006 volts x 100 amps = 5,000600 watts. Of course resistance would weaken this wattage, but not by much. I have realized that the polywell may not be the best approach and I should possibly look into dense plasma focus instead.

Spencer, with all due respect:
Good thing you realize that you "don't get" some fundamentals of electric circuits. Sounds like you expect to get at least 5 MW out of a battery, a crystal, and a crystal heater. Why bother with fusion? With 5 MW you can recharge the battery, heat/cool the crystal, and save mankind with the surplus.

Your answer will be clear when you draw us a schematic diagram, showing both of your hypothetical sources, and their connection to each other and to the load.
Use your specified voltage and/or current sources and resistors of realistic value,
then figure out (it should be trivial) the branch currents and node voltages.
Understanding that much about electricity is a prerequisite for making fusion at home, so let's start today!
Fortunately for most readers, basic electricity tutorials have no place in this forum.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Brian McDermott
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Brian McDermott »

I worked on pyroelectric fusion for a few years as an undergraduate research project. It's great for small, portable x-ray/neutron sources and as a general purpose ion source. Anything power production-related with pyroelectric crystals is so unrealistic that it's not even dream-worthy.

All the published literature on the topic echoes these statements.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Frank Sanns »

Voltage is parallel circuits is equal in all parts. The crystal produces high voltage low current. Combining the two of these will give 12volts and 100.00000000004 amps in parallel OR 100,000 volts and a nanoamp in series (isolated).

Frank Sanns


Spencer DePue wrote:
> Theoretically speaking, if you hook up a 12 volt car battery with say 100 amps, and combine it in parallel with a cm by cm z-cut lithium tantalate crystal that is heated in a vacuum to produce 100,000 volts according to the "Observation of nuclear fusion driven by a pyroelectric crystal", you should get the sum of the two amperage sources which is 100 amps + 4 nano-amps = 100.000000004 amps. However, the information that I don't know is if the two separate voltages are added or if the circuit takes the average which in this case would be
> 100,012 volts / 2 = 50,006 volts. Overall the wattage would be immense during the heating time of the crystal. 50,006 volts x 100 amps = 5,000600 watts. Of course resistance would weaken this wattage, but not by much. I have realized that the polywell may not be the best approach and I should possibly look into dense plasma focus instead.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Spencer DePue »

yeah.. i just tested 2 batteries with different voltages in parallel. I got the lower end of the volts.
Do any of you have any ideas for me to develop the simplest high voltage/amp source? The reason why I tried the pyroelectric approach was because I get incredibly frustrated when working with complex electronics/ soldering and all that other stuff. I guess i need to work on this a little more.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Rich Feldman »

Spencer DePue wrote:
> yeah.. i just tested 2 batteries with different voltages in parallel. I got the lower end of the volts.

Speaking for myself, you just earned a substantial raise in respectability
by doing an experiment to answer your question. Hurrah for Spencer!
I mean that sincerely.

With more experiments you may get complementary results,
and develop a more sophisticated mental model of what is happening.
For example: with a 12V car battery in parallel with a watch battery,
I bet you will get the higher of the volts. Learn why!
(And please wear eye protection when forcing batteries into unnatural couplings.)

> Do any of you have any ideas for me to develop the simplest high voltage/amp source?

RTFF.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Frank Sanns »

This is a very unwise and dangerous suggestion. In the case of the insulating crystal there is high resistance in the crystal so dangerous currents can not develop. In the case of a watch battery, the internal resistance is low. Putting 12 volts across a 1.5 or 3 volt battery will cause the battery to flow many times more than its short circuit current and it will explode in very short order. For this reason never put different voltage sources in parallel especially low impedance ones.

Frank Sanns


Rich Feldman wrote:
> Spencer DePue wrote:
> > yeah.. i just tested 2 batteries with different voltages in parallel. I got the lower end of the volts.
>
> Speaking for myself, you just earned a substantial raise in respectability
> by doing an experiment to answer your question. Hurrah for Spencer!
> I mean that sincerely.
>
> With more experiments you may get complementary results,
> and develop a more sophisticated mental model of what is happening.
> For example: with a 12V car battery in parallel with a watch battery,
> I bet you will get the higher of the volts. Learn why!
> (And please wear eye protection when forcing batteries into unnatural couplings.)
>
> > Do any of you have any ideas for me to develop the simplest high voltage/amp source?
>
> RTFF.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Spencer DePue »

I've got an idea that could possibly work. (correct me if I'm wrong) If I get ten 8 volt batteries with 15 amps a piece, put them in parallel so the amps would become 150 amps and the volts would remain 8 volts, then connect them to 10 piezoelectric transformers which are rated for 10 KV output per transformer, and put those units in series, would I have 100000 volts and .12 amps given that the transformer step down/ step up ratio is 1:1250 / 1250:1?

1. Would the amps be sufficient for any form of fusion?

2.Would the volts be sufficient for any form of fusion?

here is a diagram.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Spencer DePue »

woops.. thats diagram is the non-updated one here is the updated one..
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Richard Hester »

U of W folks also used 0.001" of lead in between the detector and the hot, cruel world of the fusor, which goes a long way towards keeping the bad stuff out (electrons, mainly, but other ionic rabble as well). As has been mentioned earlier, a drift tube with some magnets will also help. However, if U. of W. can operate their nasty multi-kilowatt fusor with a 0.001" lead shield to protect their detector, our more modest efforts should do ok.
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Frank Sanns »

You are not even close. May I suggest that you read up on some jr high intro to electricity before posting again. You are not even close to a circuit that could provide ANY usable power for a demo fusor let alone a neutron producing fusor. Just the word boron beyond that is simply absurd and laughable. Get a grip before posting again.

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Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Aneutronic fusion questions...

Post by Carl Willis »

Spencer:

I would appreciate some better organization in this thread. We began with your mention of an ambitious pyroelectric fusor concept, now you're talking about piezoelectric transformers (entirely different technology, and at this level of specificity needs to move to an independent thread in the High Voltage forum).

I think you should go post a thread on piezoelectric transformers over there. It is a novel direction in the fusor world, and it is interesting. While you are considering what to post in the HV forum about your interest in this subject, consider two things: (1) do piezoelectric transformers run on DC battery power? and (2) if you were going to do experiments on piezo transformers, where would you start? I doubt all this banter and wishful thinking about kilowatts of power and ganging up a bunch of car batteries is sufficiently grounded in reality to be helpful. Are you making appropriate use of Google and of literature searches...?

Thanks,
Carl
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