Finally, a German Startup (?) in Fusion

Post links to other interesting fusion or alternate energy sites here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Dennis P Brown
Posts: 3229
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 10:46 am
Real name: Dennis Brown

Finally, a German Startup (?) in Fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Here Dr. Hossenfelder talks about a "fusion startup" in Germany. A staggering $20 million dollars ...ok, guess that is for a graphics internet site ...lol. At least they are using the very well grounded and extremely successful Wendelstein 7x design. Through even for that 'small' stellarator, $20 million would, maybe, buy one magnet.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP0H2-Dnsbk
User avatar
Paul_Schatzkin
Site Admin
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 12:49 pm
Real name: aka The Perfesser
Contact:

Re: Finally, a German Startup (?) in Fusion

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

.
It's nice to see Sabine advocating for fusion, but... well, it's still hot jello and rubber bands. Only the rubber bands are twisted in this case. Like that's going to make a whole lot of difference?

She says the Wendelshtein 7 has stabilized plasma for eight minutes. Got any idea what the input/output ratio is compared to a fusor (which we've all seen run for a lot longer than eight minutes) ?

"... it would clean and basically unlimited energy, so we can all stop pretending that we're going to go vegan..."

That's aiming a little low, but might still be the best rationale for fusion I've heard yet.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
User avatar
Dennis P Brown
Posts: 3229
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 10:46 am
Real name: Dennis Brown

Re: Finally, a German Startup (?) in Fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Certainly no argument with those points - except going vegan; I don't like Brussel Sprouts, and don't get me started on lettuce so not gonna consider that route.

The current record time for a plasma control by a tokamak is 43 seconds. So Wendelstein's ability to currently hold a stable power plant level density plasma for over 8 minutes is extremely good. And they will likely achieve 30 minutes (limited only by their heat load worries.) So, this stellarator design likely shows plasma can be held in a stable configuration only restricted by secondary issues - no small achievement. That they are discovering the real dynamics of long period control of a fusion grade plasma is certainly useful for understanding these problems.

That all said its still a useless approch - the issues of wall threats, extensive repair issues of staggeringly radioactive walls/components and the shear cost of SC magnets as well as the massive complexity of any prototype D-T burning sized test reactor would just prove that power from fusion is unaffordable and will always be unaffordable for this planet.

Again, fission can be very inexpensive, has huge quantities of available fuel, potentially no waste issue and certainly proven to work at power plant level outputs and yet remains ignored. Ridiculous.
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 15071
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Finally, a German Startup (?) in Fusion

Post by Richard Hull »

Question...Always questions...Questions unanswered always....
1. Was the plasma deuterium alone??
2. Was the plasma D-T??
3. Was the plasma some other gas to avoid contamination issues and yet measure its temperature?
4. What was the full stabilized plasma temperature?
5. If fusible gases were used,how much measured fusion was achieved?
6. What was the electrical grid to fusion Q value?

I am sure someone, somewhere, is privy to speak authoritatively to all the above questions. I am sure no one here can answer all 6 questions.

It makes a big, big difference if they are really doing something significant other than stabilizing a still sub-fusion temperature plasma in a non-fusible gas like hydrogen.

If they are doing fusion with a fusible gas, give us a Q value that means something to real power companies and thus, a real fusion future.

You dare not, after making such claims of an x number of seconds, minutes or hours of a perfectly stabilized plasma, if the Q in fusion is nowhere near 1.0...And it means nothing to future fusion energy so far as the power companies are concerned unless the Q, grid-to-fusion output, is not at least 10.0!!

So, the beat and beat up goes on and on. Treasured tales of success in this, that or the other in the fusion quest. Milestones achieved almost weekly now with no data, just generalities related to said success.

By the way,.... fusion fuel is not readily available in vast quantities, unless you are only doing power ready, D-D fusion. You know, the lesser fusion.
There is no 3He on earth. There is no T on earth. None of these fuels are available to operate world powered fusion reactors for more than a few milliseconds! If current supplies were divided up equally among, say, 50, 2 gigawatt fusion power plants around the earth, POOF, All gone in at relative instant.

Someone must stand up and speak to the realities, telling the emperor he has no clothes. I have taken on this mantle for years as Rome burns and they give us bread and circus to keep us happy at a totally uninformed level.

Flies in the ointment, always and seemingly forever, flies in the ointment.


Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
User avatar
Dennis P Brown
Posts: 3229
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 10:46 am
Real name: Dennis Brown

Re: Finally, a German Startup (?) in Fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

No current tokamak or stellarator's in current testing uses D-T; the walls would become staggeringly radioactive very rapidly. So, hydrogen is the common gas. These systems are testing the physics of plasma control and ideas on input energy heat removal. The vid pointed this out; however, this clearly demonstrates that this stellarator is making real progress in both understanding fusion level plasmas and even discovering new issues. That is, finding a problem that could bite one in such a stellarator system. Interesting enough, this new issue now has a possible solution. As such, this stellarator is truly helping to point the way to a real fusion proto-type reactor that could produce continuous net* energy.

This is vital and major step in controlled nuclear fusion since until a plasma can be held at fusion density/temp levels for an arbitrary time, no test reactor would work anyway. Recall in very recent times past, achieving a fusion plasma density (temperature and density that would enable burn if D-T was used) was measure in parts of a second to two or three seconds (some actual work was done with D-T with terrible clean up issues as a result.)

Now, holding a reactor level plasma is measured in minutes for the Wendelstein and will likely reach 30 minutes in the near future. In principle then, such a stellarator could be maintained for as long as desired if one removes the heat load from the plasma (created by input microwave heaters) - again, any such future devices will continue to use hydrogen since real fuels D-T would created a radioactive device no one could approch or properly use.

Until that neutron threat issue is ever addressed in a real manner, these devices will remain a far cry from even a small nuclear fueled reactor test bed. In fact, no sane person would or should fund a D-T fuel plasma test system without first making the system safe to operate, run various experiments and repair w/o exposing workers to extreme radiation.

* I will continue to maintain that NO plasma based fusion system with even massive net power generation (say a few Giga-watts/year), even with 'proper shielding', will EVER be able to create such energy at any economical level. This will remain true for the next 50 years, at the least - period. For this reason, even though any such operating fusion reactor could produce all the tritium needed for use as a fuel, the effort would be utterly pointless since said fusion power would cost far, far more then any existing system.
User avatar
Paul_Schatzkin
Site Admin
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 12:49 pm
Real name: aka The Perfesser
Contact:

Re: Finally, a German Startup (?) in Fusion

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

.
Dennis P Brown wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:07 pm * I will continue to maintain that NO plasma based fusion system with even massive net power generation (say a few Giga-watts/year), even with 'proper shielding', will EVER be able to create such energy at any economical level.
I guess it's time to write your congressman:

https://www.power-eng.com/nuclear/u-s-l ... sion/#gref

--PS
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 15071
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Finally, a German Startup (?) in Fusion

Post by Richard Hull »

It is great that the government is trying to put out fusion energy regulations well in advance of the "real soon now", fusion reactor construction to produce all the energy needed to charge up the EV's they are pushing. What could possibly go wrong with more government regulation of a non-extant power technology and related engineering.

Dennis is getting the gist of fusion's future. 50 years might be about right, but I feel more like early in the 22nd century. This assumes no major nuclear exchanges or long running ground wars and fiscal collapse. While recovering from such disasters, fusion will be far back on the list of things that need doing.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Post Reply

Return to “Interesting Links”