Energy Producing Fusor
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- Posts: 20
- Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:28 pm
- Real name: Blake Resnick
Energy Producing Fusor
Hello Everyone,
I have a rather odd idea in mind for my demo fusor... I have noticed that some very well-made demo fusors, and almost all proper neutron producing fusors grids have a red or while glow emanating from them. This, of course, is evidence of immense amounts of heat being thrown off. So my question is, "Could this be harnessed?" I doubt the energy produced would be much more than the power required to light a LED, but if would be an interesting proof of concept. What I propose is having the grid attached to a larger piece of metal that would be covered with thermoelectric generators like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/281009263022?lpid=82m The heat would almost certainly be from the inefficiencies of the reactor, but like I said this would only be a proof of concept.
What do you think?
Am I missing anything?
Has anyone attempted this before?
Thanks,
-Blake
I have a rather odd idea in mind for my demo fusor... I have noticed that some very well-made demo fusors, and almost all proper neutron producing fusors grids have a red or while glow emanating from them. This, of course, is evidence of immense amounts of heat being thrown off. So my question is, "Could this be harnessed?" I doubt the energy produced would be much more than the power required to light a LED, but if would be an interesting proof of concept. What I propose is having the grid attached to a larger piece of metal that would be covered with thermoelectric generators like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/281009263022?lpid=82m The heat would almost certainly be from the inefficiencies of the reactor, but like I said this would only be a proof of concept.
What do you think?
Am I missing anything?
Has anyone attempted this before?
Thanks,
-Blake
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- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:30 pm
- Real name: Alexandru Calburean
Re: Energy Producing Fusor
Blake,
The main problem with harnessing the energy from a fusor, radiant or otherwise, is that the input power required is orders of magnitude greater than the output. This Q value of fusors is so low that it is impractical to even try to do what you are suggesting. It is not that you are missing something in terms of being able to harness energy it is just that there is no point to do it other than having a novel addition to the fusor. I would argue that you get more energy out from a sticking one of those thermocouples on the outside of a diffusion pump next to the heater rather than trying to place any means of energy extraction near the grid. Another problem with energy extraction from a fusor is that what heats up the grid is not contact with plasma but rather ion bombardment, which in time will weaken and subsequently melt anything. This is why I said placing a thermocouple next to the diffusion pump heater will get you better results because even a tungsten based thermocouple would eventually melt due to ion bombardment. If you really want to place a thermocouple on a fusor like the one you linked to just for laughs, the best bet would be to stick it on the shell of a fusor which gets really hot from ion bombardment, probably something like a 2.75in CF cross. Good luck in your efforts.
All the best,
~Alex Calburean
The main problem with harnessing the energy from a fusor, radiant or otherwise, is that the input power required is orders of magnitude greater than the output. This Q value of fusors is so low that it is impractical to even try to do what you are suggesting. It is not that you are missing something in terms of being able to harness energy it is just that there is no point to do it other than having a novel addition to the fusor. I would argue that you get more energy out from a sticking one of those thermocouples on the outside of a diffusion pump next to the heater rather than trying to place any means of energy extraction near the grid. Another problem with energy extraction from a fusor is that what heats up the grid is not contact with plasma but rather ion bombardment, which in time will weaken and subsequently melt anything. This is why I said placing a thermocouple next to the diffusion pump heater will get you better results because even a tungsten based thermocouple would eventually melt due to ion bombardment. If you really want to place a thermocouple on a fusor like the one you linked to just for laughs, the best bet would be to stick it on the shell of a fusor which gets really hot from ion bombardment, probably something like a 2.75in CF cross. Good luck in your efforts.
All the best,
~Alex Calburean
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- Posts: 20
- Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:28 pm
- Real name: Blake Resnick
Re: Energy Producing Fusor
You are, by all accounts correct, and right about it producing more power if it were attached to the diff pump . However, the point of this experiment is to produce energy (far less than we put in of course) from "fusion", or at least plasma. Keeping in mind the previous statements, "Where do you think that the most efficient place to put the generator is?" I am not entirely sure if a demo reactor could heat up the cross sufficiently to produce any measurable amount of power.
Thanks,
-Blake
Thanks,
-Blake
- Chris Bradley
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Re: Energy Producing Fusor
Less than a billionth of the 'thermal power' out of a fusor is from fusion. The rest is waste heat generated in the processes of the device. It is therefore irrelevant, even if it was measurable as a separate thermal output (which it is not).
It would be like trying to recover the sound energy from a passing truck to argue that you are making road haulage more efficient.
It would be like trying to recover the sound energy from a passing truck to argue that you are making road haulage more efficient.
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- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:30 pm
- Real name: Alexandru Calburean
Re: Energy Producing Fusor
Blake,
The place that will deliver the most radiant energy is the poissor (virtual anode) itself, but it is impossible to place anything in it for many obvious reasons. The second most hot place in a fusor is then the grid, which again is very difficult to be modified to accept an energy capture device of some sort for obvious reasons, and is dangerous for one of those reasons; it too will float at -(large number) of kilo-volts. Even a demo will produce close to same amount of heat as a neutron producing reactor, as the plasma is generally at the same temperature so the same problems and reasoning as state above apply. As far as considerably heating things (like a bell jar or more safely a small CF cross) up, this happens in two main ways. First, you run at higher pressures (jet mode) and focus said bugle jets with a magnetic array of some sort at one location, much the way Robert Tubbs has done in his beam on target effort. This direct bombardment will eventually really heat up that small section (many bell jars and feed throughs are destroyed this way). Second, since the radiant energy (heat in your case) emission is isotropic from the poissor you can wait for random scattering and bombardment heats up your chamber walls to the point that a small amount of power can be harnessed. I gave an example of a small CF cross because its surface area is so small that it will have trouble dissipating heat and would therefore be more readily used for your purposes. I suppose that in the most extreme scenarios you could run water through copper tubing around a very hot cross and get steam to power a small turbine but by that time your grid would most likely be long gone. Again the amount of power here is so feeble that I don't think it would be worth your time, but like I said your best bet is to probably try to focus a bugle jet to a definite region and then extract heat from that. Another really interesting and great idea is Andrew Seltzman's cooled grid, that too extracts energy from ion bombardment and greatly improves performance of the reactor while pulling a little heat energy out from the grid. Below are the links to his paper and website respectively: https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/h ... sequence=1
http://www.rtftechnologies.org/physics/ ... -index.htm
The place that will deliver the most radiant energy is the poissor (virtual anode) itself, but it is impossible to place anything in it for many obvious reasons. The second most hot place in a fusor is then the grid, which again is very difficult to be modified to accept an energy capture device of some sort for obvious reasons, and is dangerous for one of those reasons; it too will float at -(large number) of kilo-volts. Even a demo will produce close to same amount of heat as a neutron producing reactor, as the plasma is generally at the same temperature so the same problems and reasoning as state above apply. As far as considerably heating things (like a bell jar or more safely a small CF cross) up, this happens in two main ways. First, you run at higher pressures (jet mode) and focus said bugle jets with a magnetic array of some sort at one location, much the way Robert Tubbs has done in his beam on target effort. This direct bombardment will eventually really heat up that small section (many bell jars and feed throughs are destroyed this way). Second, since the radiant energy (heat in your case) emission is isotropic from the poissor you can wait for random scattering and bombardment heats up your chamber walls to the point that a small amount of power can be harnessed. I gave an example of a small CF cross because its surface area is so small that it will have trouble dissipating heat and would therefore be more readily used for your purposes. I suppose that in the most extreme scenarios you could run water through copper tubing around a very hot cross and get steam to power a small turbine but by that time your grid would most likely be long gone. Again the amount of power here is so feeble that I don't think it would be worth your time, but like I said your best bet is to probably try to focus a bugle jet to a definite region and then extract heat from that. Another really interesting and great idea is Andrew Seltzman's cooled grid, that too extracts energy from ion bombardment and greatly improves performance of the reactor while pulling a little heat energy out from the grid. Below are the links to his paper and website respectively: https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/h ... sequence=1
http://www.rtftechnologies.org/physics/ ... -index.htm
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- Posts: 20
- Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:28 pm
- Real name: Blake Resnick
Re: Energy Producing Fusor
The article that was linked proved to be incredibly interesting and relevant to this idea. The set up that he proposed is a bit too complex for my current reactor, but the ideas were great. Also utilizing jet mode for more precise heat focusing should provide some fairly high temperatures, ones that would be well suited for thermoelectric generators. I will try and pursue some of these possible solutions once I get my 15kv 60ma power supply in.
Thanks once again,
-Blake
Thanks once again,
-Blake
- Chris Bradley
- Posts: 2930
- Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 7:05 am
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Re: Energy Producing Fusor
Blake, Are you missing the point? If you put 400W primary electrical power into a fusor then you get 400W of secondary low grade heat back. Even at 100% conversion of low grade heat into electricity, if that were ever to be discovered to be possible, you'd only get 400W back. If you want 400W of electrical power from your 400W worth of input into the fusor, just bypass the fusor!!
- Richard Hull
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- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: Energy Producing Fusor
I think Blake was asking for proof of concept. If that was for a demo system for school or a novel show and tell then fine, it could be done. A demo fusor is not proof that fusion can be done, even though it can, with some modifications, in some instances, be a good representation of the controls needed and what to expect in real fusion operation.
An inner grid that uses hollow metal tubing in a demo fusor could be used to create some steam turning a small 1/2 pound turbine of amateur construction and hooked to a little permanent magnet toy motor light a super bright LED or such. A model of a fake, but interesting little fusion plant could be constructed showing a complete cycle. Such a system might be a bit larger than normal and consume a bit more power from the mains outlet, but the possibility would be there.
Any fool with even a high school physics background would know it was not doing nuclear fusion and that the power to light the LED was coming from the wall outlet via a continuous stream of drastic and riduclous loses, but it would be cool to see. All here would know that the extra money and time spent doing this little toy model might better be spent on making the demo fusor really do nuclear fusion.
Most of us here choose to use the demo as a stepping stone to real fusion by learning the tricks and artifice needed to control the narrow range of all the critical variables involved in actually getting such a system to fuse, shouold we wish to go "all the way". Most all demo fusors never make it to fusion as the novelty and expense in time or money or even desire to complete are just not there and probably never were.
I think this is the case here. Such a novel little science museum type demo system will never be constructed in a credible way. Money, time, the ability to follow through are probably just not there. Critical observers of such a system would just laugh while the down at heel cretinous public would ooh and aah over the little presentation. A good on-line charletan could develop a little money making venture around such a model to collect from the ever hopeful and gullible with promises of investing in the future of fusion energy.
Richard Hull
An inner grid that uses hollow metal tubing in a demo fusor could be used to create some steam turning a small 1/2 pound turbine of amateur construction and hooked to a little permanent magnet toy motor light a super bright LED or such. A model of a fake, but interesting little fusion plant could be constructed showing a complete cycle. Such a system might be a bit larger than normal and consume a bit more power from the mains outlet, but the possibility would be there.
Any fool with even a high school physics background would know it was not doing nuclear fusion and that the power to light the LED was coming from the wall outlet via a continuous stream of drastic and riduclous loses, but it would be cool to see. All here would know that the extra money and time spent doing this little toy model might better be spent on making the demo fusor really do nuclear fusion.
Most of us here choose to use the demo as a stepping stone to real fusion by learning the tricks and artifice needed to control the narrow range of all the critical variables involved in actually getting such a system to fuse, shouold we wish to go "all the way". Most all demo fusors never make it to fusion as the novelty and expense in time or money or even desire to complete are just not there and probably never were.
I think this is the case here. Such a novel little science museum type demo system will never be constructed in a credible way. Money, time, the ability to follow through are probably just not there. Critical observers of such a system would just laugh while the down at heel cretinous public would ooh and aah over the little presentation. A good on-line charletan could develop a little money making venture around such a model to collect from the ever hopeful and gullible with promises of investing in the future of fusion energy.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
- Chris Bradley
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- Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 7:05 am
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Re: Energy Producing Fusor
Well, in that case and AFAIK, the only extant and immediately practicable way to recover energy from waste heat is to get it to feed into a phase-change system, for example a heat pump system or a liquid air energy storage system. By flowing liquid air past a source of waste heat before the liquid air is used to generate power, that waste heat will add to the power output at a very high efficiency.
If I were to do that with a fusor grid, I'd want to run deionised water through it and interface the liquid air system with a heat exchanger. So, IMHO, the first step is, as has been identified, something along the lines that Andrew has done. But that also means you can test your energy recovery process with any source of heat, feeding into that heat exchanger, so the fusor could be a 'red-herring' to that particular experiment.
If I were to do that with a fusor grid, I'd want to run deionised water through it and interface the liquid air system with a heat exchanger. So, IMHO, the first step is, as has been identified, something along the lines that Andrew has done. But that also means you can test your energy recovery process with any source of heat, feeding into that heat exchanger, so the fusor could be a 'red-herring' to that particular experiment.
- Richard Hull
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- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: Energy Producing Fusor
Regardless of engineering and expense, such a system would be possible. A great little time waster and money pit to gleen, at best, a few oohs and ahhs from a less than involved or informed populace. A deligthful little "spin your wheels effort".
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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- Posts: 20
- Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:28 pm
- Real name: Blake Resnick
Re: Energy Producing Fusor
Richard Hull fully understands the point of this little project, it is simply a proof of concept and will function as such. It should also enlighten those that do not fully understand how power could be generated from fusion, even if real reactors use different methods of power generation.
Thanks for all of the feedback so far,
-Blake
Thanks for all of the feedback so far,
-Blake