Harnessing power from fusor
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Anson Tsang
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Harnessing power from fusor
Hi everyone, it's Anson with another question again. Is there anyway we can harness the energy inside the vacuum chamber and transform it into an electrical output? Thanks
Anson Tsang, 13years old Elsa High School student in HK
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Carl Willis
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Re: Harnessing power from fusor
Not practically.
It has to be regularly mentioned in these forums that fusion power released in even the best performing amateur fusors amounts to a few microwatts--far too little to be directly detectable--and that a large portion of that energy is in the motion of neutrons that leave the chamber and are highly penetrating into surrounding materials (not a good thing for energy recovery prospects).
Furthermore, a well-performing fusor absorbs about 1 kW of electricity. In the small hobby systems, this energy is quickly transformed into low-quality heat for which there are no recovery options. People under the impression that a hobby fusor can be a power plant have to reconcile their naive optimism with the fact that it generates thermal power at the rate of one unit for every 10^9 units input. To be a power plant rather than a net consumer of power, one would have to have recovery better than 99.999999%: not quite impossible by the laws of thermodynamics, but practically impossible. Typical power plants boast thermal efficiencies around 35% and the most efficient ones in common use (natural gas combined-cycle combustion turbine plants) reach only 60%.
Real hobby fusion has never been much about building power plants. You'll see on this forum a few people who dream about it, and talk about it, but the ones doing the dreaming and talking rarely think it through or do any background research (much less actually build something). After all, reality is too much of a downer for these folks!
-Carl
It has to be regularly mentioned in these forums that fusion power released in even the best performing amateur fusors amounts to a few microwatts--far too little to be directly detectable--and that a large portion of that energy is in the motion of neutrons that leave the chamber and are highly penetrating into surrounding materials (not a good thing for energy recovery prospects).
Furthermore, a well-performing fusor absorbs about 1 kW of electricity. In the small hobby systems, this energy is quickly transformed into low-quality heat for which there are no recovery options. People under the impression that a hobby fusor can be a power plant have to reconcile their naive optimism with the fact that it generates thermal power at the rate of one unit for every 10^9 units input. To be a power plant rather than a net consumer of power, one would have to have recovery better than 99.999999%: not quite impossible by the laws of thermodynamics, but practically impossible. Typical power plants boast thermal efficiencies around 35% and the most efficient ones in common use (natural gas combined-cycle combustion turbine plants) reach only 60%.
Real hobby fusion has never been much about building power plants. You'll see on this forum a few people who dream about it, and talk about it, but the ones doing the dreaming and talking rarely think it through or do any background research (much less actually build something). After all, reality is too much of a downer for these folks!
-Carl
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Anson Tsang
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Re: Harnessing power from fusor
Nonono, I am not trying to create a nuclear power plant, but I am just curious if you can measure the energy directly Not by many complex calculations.
Anson Tsang, 13years old Elsa High School student in HK
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Carl Willis
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Re: Harnessing power from fusor
Measuring neutron output is by far the easiest measurement of actual fusion rate that has been identified to date.
Direct detection of the reaction heat, i.e. calorimetry, is not practical.
-Carl
Direct detection of the reaction heat, i.e. calorimetry, is not practical.
-Carl
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Richard Hull
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Re: Harnessing power from fusor
Carl sort of beat me to the answer here and is absolutely correct in all his statements. I will further the tale related to the fusor.net mission. This mission has nothing to do with making viable fusion energy at the amateur level.
The best we can hope for is to have the folks who come here get an honest education related to fusion in general and hopefully, much of the scientifc aspects as well. This effort will launch into the public a number of individuals who will not be easily deceived by wild-eyed claims related to fusion and who will have a viable, critical review capability to share with those less well versed.
Nothing succeeds like success. If you actually do fusion, it goes a long way towards your credibility when either arguing or discussing fusion to note that you have done fusion with your own hands. My guess is that there are fewer than 200 living beings in the US who can claim with truthfulness and some level of proof, that from their own purse and with there own hands, have done nuclear fusion in their homes. Such Fusioneer graduates from this web based venue are truly head and shoulders above any would-be armchair fusion booster or self-styled fusion buff.
Even if you don't do fusion, but hang around and join in discussions for a year or two and maybe get a demo system going, you will take from here a knowledge base related to fusion that only a very few individuals possess.
I hope you enjoy the journey should you wish to remain here for a while.
Richard Hull
The best we can hope for is to have the folks who come here get an honest education related to fusion in general and hopefully, much of the scientifc aspects as well. This effort will launch into the public a number of individuals who will not be easily deceived by wild-eyed claims related to fusion and who will have a viable, critical review capability to share with those less well versed.
Nothing succeeds like success. If you actually do fusion, it goes a long way towards your credibility when either arguing or discussing fusion to note that you have done fusion with your own hands. My guess is that there are fewer than 200 living beings in the US who can claim with truthfulness and some level of proof, that from their own purse and with there own hands, have done nuclear fusion in their homes. Such Fusioneer graduates from this web based venue are truly head and shoulders above any would-be armchair fusion booster or self-styled fusion buff.
Even if you don't do fusion, but hang around and join in discussions for a year or two and maybe get a demo system going, you will take from here a knowledge base related to fusion that only a very few individuals possess.
I hope you enjoy the journey should you wish to remain here for a while.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Dan Tibbets
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Re: Harnessing power from fusor
As mentioned, detection of neutrons is the easiest because they can be detected outside the vacuum chamber. Proton fusion products with D-D fusion is another possibility. The high energy protons do not penetrate the steel or aluminum walls, so the Geiger counter has to be inside the vacuum chamber, which is not friendly towards the sensitive processes inside a Geiger tube. Several university groups has done this much more challenging measurement technique. The advantage is that the path of the protons, and thus their origin can be determined better than with the neutrons. It is a useful tool, but I don't know of any amateurs doing it.
Dan Tibbets
Dan Tibbets