Aneutronic fusion questions...

[Starfire]

Correction Richard - I have played with the p-B11 for years - a Boron salt in a tiny sub-mm size well in a 1/2" tungsten slug down a 2 mtr deep well in a pond - latest problem ( and there has been many ) is with a final chamber - search for B11 in the forums - but I agree it's problematic and taxes patience - I've spent a small fortune chasing the B11 dream - not for the feint hearted nor those who expect quick success.


My Ion Gun head ( proton source ) with glass insulator above the well ;-

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2947&hilit=b11#p12457

[Richard Hester]

Well yeah, but yours is more a gunned approach than a fusor or polywell.

[Richard Hull]

The U of W folks used a PIPS or surface barrier detector for proton detection. Apparently it worked OK. PIPs are also used for Alpha spec work. However, using a PIPS in a fusor will probably obviate its future use for spectrowork as they warn about smoke or grease depositions affecting spectro accuracy. The fusor would deposit cathode material all over the detector. The detector would still detect, it just would not do a good job on energy after protratcted periods. As we all know, PIPS detectors are pricey and you need the biased preamp, etc., to make it all go as a detector/counter.

While not getting precise data from PIPS you should easily discriminate against the 40kev electrons impacting it and a multi-mev proton.

Richard Hull

[Spencer DePue]

Theoretically speaking, if you hook up a 12 volt car battery with say 100 amps, and combine it in parallel with a cm by cm z-cut lithium tantalate crystal that is heated in a vacuum to produce 100,000 volts according to the "Observation of nuclear fusion driven by a pyroelectric crystal", you should get the sum of the two amperage sources which is 100 amps + 4 nano-amps = 100.000000004 amps. However, the information that I don't know is if the two separate voltages are added or if the circuit takes the average which in this case would be
100,012 volts / 2 = 50,006 volts. Overall the wattage would be immense during the heating time of the crystal. 50,006 volts x 100 amps = 5,000600 watts. Of course resistance would weaken this wattage, but not by much. I have realized that the polywell may not be the best approach and I should possibly look into dense plasma focus instead.

[Rich Feldman]

Spencer DePue wrote:
> Theoretically speaking, if you hook up a 12 volt car battery with say 100 amps, and combine it in parallel with a cm by cm z-cut lithium tantalate crystal that is heated in a vacuum to produce 100,000 volts according to the "Observation of nuclear fusion driven by a pyroelectric crystal", you should get the sum of the two amperage sources which is 100 amps + 4 nano-amps = 100.000000004 amps. However, the information that I don't know is if the two separate voltages are added or if the circuit takes the average which in this case would be
> 100,012 volts / 2 = 50,006 volts. Overall the wattage would be immense during the heating time of the crystal. 50,006 volts x 100 amps = 5,000600 watts. Of course resistance would weaken this wattage, but not by much. I have realized that the polywell may not be the best approach and I should possibly look into dense plasma focus instead.

Spencer, with all due respect:
Good thing you realize that you "don't get" some fundamentals of electric circuits. Sounds like you expect to get at least 5 MW out of a battery, a crystal, and a crystal heater. Why bother with fusion? With 5 MW you can recharge the battery, heat/cool the crystal, and save mankind with the surplus.

Your answer will be clear when you draw us a schematic diagram, showing both of your hypothetical sources, and their connection to each other and to the load.
Use your specified voltage and/or current sources and resistors of realistic value,
then figure out (it should be trivial) the branch currents and node voltages.
Understanding that much about electricity is a prerequisite for making fusion at home, so let's start today!
Fortunately for most readers, basic electricity tutorials have no place in this forum.

[Brian McDermott]

I worked on pyroelectric fusion for a few years as an undergraduate research project. It's great for small, portable x-ray/neutron sources and as a general purpose ion source. Anything power production-related with pyroelectric crystals is so unrealistic that it's not even dream-worthy.

All the published literature on the topic echoes these statements.

[Frank Sanns]

Voltage is parallel circuits is equal in all parts. The crystal produces high voltage low current. Combining the two of these will give 12volts and 100.00000000004 amps in parallel OR 100,000 volts and a nanoamp in series (isolated).

Frank Sanns


Spencer DePue wrote:
> Theoretically speaking, if you hook up a 12 volt car battery with say 100 amps, and combine it in parallel with a cm by cm z-cut lithium tantalate crystal that is heated in a vacuum to produce 100,000 volts according to the "Observation of nuclear fusion driven by a pyroelectric crystal", you should get the sum of the two amperage sources which is 100 amps + 4 nano-amps = 100.000000004 amps. However, the information that I don't know is if the two separate voltages are added or if the circuit takes the average which in this case would be
> 100,012 volts / 2 = 50,006 volts. Overall the wattage would be immense during the heating time of the crystal. 50,006 volts x 100 amps = 5,000600 watts. Of course resistance would weaken this wattage, but not by much. I have realized that the polywell may not be the best approach and I should possibly look into dense plasma focus instead.

[Spencer DePue]

yeah.. i just tested 2 batteries with different voltages in parallel. I got the lower end of the volts.
Do any of you have any ideas for me to develop the simplest high voltage/amp source? The reason why I tried the pyroelectric approach was because I get incredibly frustrated when working with complex electronics/ soldering and all that other stuff. I guess i need to work on this a little more.

[Rich Feldman]

Spencer DePue wrote:
> yeah.. i just tested 2 batteries with different voltages in parallel. I got the lower end of the volts.

Speaking for myself, you just earned a substantial raise in respectability
by doing an experiment to answer your question. Hurrah for Spencer!
I mean that sincerely.

With more experiments you may get complementary results,
and develop a more sophisticated mental model of what is happening.
For example: with a 12V car battery in parallel with a watch battery,
I bet you will get the higher of the volts. Learn why!
(And please wear eye protection when forcing batteries into unnatural couplings.)

> Do any of you have any ideas for me to develop the simplest high voltage/amp source?

RTFF.

[Frank Sanns]

This is a very unwise and dangerous suggestion. In the case of the insulating crystal there is high resistance in the crystal so dangerous currents can not develop. In the case of a watch battery, the internal resistance is low. Putting 12 volts across a 1.5 or 3 volt battery will cause the battery to flow many times more than its short circuit current and it will explode in very short order. For this reason never put different voltage sources in parallel especially low impedance ones.

Frank Sanns


Rich Feldman wrote:
> Spencer DePue wrote:
> > yeah.. i just tested 2 batteries with different voltages in parallel. I got the lower end of the volts.
>
> Speaking for myself, you just earned a substantial raise in respectability
> by doing an experiment to answer your question. Hurrah for Spencer!
> I mean that sincerely.
>
> With more experiments you may get complementary results,
> and develop a more sophisticated mental model of what is happening.
> For example: with a 12V car battery in parallel with a watch battery,
> I bet you will get the higher of the volts. Learn why!
> (And please wear eye protection when forcing batteries into unnatural couplings.)
>
> > Do any of you have any ideas for me to develop the simplest high voltage/amp source?
>
> RTFF.

[Spencer DePue]

I've got an idea that could possibly work. (correct me if I'm wrong) If I get ten 8 volt batteries with 15 amps a piece, put them in parallel so the amps would become 150 amps and the volts would remain 8 volts, then connect them to 10 piezoelectric transformers which are rated for 10 KV output per transformer, and put those units in series, would I have 100000 volts and .12 amps given that the transformer step down/ step up ratio is 1:1250 / 1250:1?

1. Would the amps be sufficient for any form of fusion?

2.Would the volts be sufficient for any form of fusion?

here is a diagram.

[Spencer DePue]

woops.. thats diagram is the non-updated one here is the updated one..

[Richard Hester]

U of W folks also used 0.001" of lead in between the detector and the hot, cruel world of the fusor, which goes a long way towards keeping the bad stuff out (electrons, mainly, but other ionic rabble as well). As has been mentioned earlier, a drift tube with some magnets will also help. However, if U. of W. can operate their nasty multi-kilowatt fusor with a 0.001" lead shield to protect their detector, our more modest efforts should do ok.

[Frank Sanns]

You are not even close. May I suggest that you read up on some jr high intro to electricity before posting again. You are not even close to a circuit that could provide ANY usable power for a demo fusor let alone a neutron producing fusor. Just the word boron beyond that is simply absurd and laughable. Get a grip before posting again.

Frank Sanns

[Carl Willis]

Spencer:

I would appreciate some better organization in this thread. We began with your mention of an ambitious pyroelectric fusor concept, now you're talking about piezoelectric transformers (entirely different technology, and at this level of specificity needs to move to an independent thread in the High Voltage forum).

I think you should go post a thread on piezoelectric transformers over there. It is a novel direction in the fusor world, and it is interesting. While you are considering what to post in the HV forum about your interest in this subject, consider two things: (1) do piezoelectric transformers run on DC battery power? and (2) if you were going to do experiments on piezo transformers, where would you start? I doubt all this banter and wishful thinking about kilowatts of power and ganging up a bunch of car batteries is sufficiently grounded in reality to be helpful. Are you making appropriate use of Google and of literature searches...?

Thanks,
Carl

[Dustin]

The responses so far seem rather harsh,

The piezo transformers idea has a little merit worth another peek at.

The piezo transformers as part of a pre-made assembly for ccfl or whatever will run off DC

If each is set up with a CW multiplier and a battery you could stack these in series to get 100kv
but you would need good isolation between batteries / CCFL assemblies.

Another problem is how do you turn them on which would require opto isolation because if you turn on the top one, its battery sits at 90kv.

In any case you would be very limited in current so would be better for a linear accelerator perhaps.
Steve.

[Starfire]

Hi Richard - how else to do it on a realistic scale? - The problem is the same - how to detect the reaction?