UK Radiation License requirement ?

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Nanos
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UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Nanos »

Can anyone else confirm or deny the following post ?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3762#p24159

I suppose I could always get a boat, park it in international waters and solve it that way..

Otherwise, its not going to happen for me, as I live in rented accomidation, I seriously doubt any landlord would be happy to help a tenant get a license, I imagine also the requirements of the license (Whatever they are, I can't seem to find any refences to it online in much detail at all.) exceed my single room dwelling and Ł400 is pretty steep too.
Nanos
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Nanos »

Ta, read that a while ago, didn't see anything about UK requirements.
JohnCuthbert
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by JohnCuthbert »

I think that there are 2 regulations covering the use of rafdioactive materials in the UK.
Here'e one
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/uksi_19993232_en.pdf
And here's the other
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/acts/acts ... 2_en_1.htm

and I don't think either of them apply to an individual undertaking proivate research.
Of course the recent rules on terrorism mean that they can lock you up for nothing anyway but that's another story.
DaveC
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by DaveC »

Perhaps, the message is to consider what it is that you are really trying to do. Study - radioactivity or fusion/plasma processes.

The former could well be cause for societal concern, if the person is irresponsible and devoid of common sense... and there are more than few folks around that fit this category. (We are always reading about someone who has a garage or basement full of explosive materials, and then a fire happens and the nieghborhood is threatened). Adding radioactive materials to that scenario is NOT a comforting thought.

But the active contributors on this board evidence no signs of this irresponsible sort of behavior. Most here are more like watchers and guardians themselves

The fusion/plasma category takes a different tack. We've just had a discussion centered around activation, and whether it was a plausible hazard to those who run their fusors hard and often.

The numbers spoke eloquently.... nothing we would want to be operating would be able to activate common materials in any reasonable time frame.

Fortunately for all concerned, the IEC fusor as we build them at present, is not a high powered emitter of anything. Xrays constitute the only significan hazard, and this is only for the devices operating above 50 kV at more than a few mA, of which there might be a dozen or so in the private domain.

Those that have an eye to multi hundred keV and ampere level devices, if there are such here, are in an entirely different category. These can truly be dangerous, although again mostly to the operators, and mostly through the possible xray exposure. 100 kV x-rays will go through block walls and travel for quite a few meters in open air. Whether a biohazard or not, depends now on quantities and length of exposure....etc. Same also for the neutrons, although to a lesser extent, since the fusion output is such a tiny fraction of the total energy input.

It is that at some point, what the amateur can do, is definitely going to be a proper safety concern to local government. It is probably a very sound idea to stay well away from these obvious regions of output and exposure, and work at finesse and not brute force approaches.

If the genuine high power regime is calling to you, then be responsible and comply with local ordinances. They are somewhat encumbering, and not inexpensive, but far less so than lawsuits, and a lifetime of medical care treating a degenerative rad-induced health problem.

Dave Cooper
Starfire
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Starfire »

In the UK, possession and storage of ANY Radioactive substance on any premises requires a license and inspection. But on looking at the reference from John Cuthbert - it may be that small sources are exempt - needs to be looked into more.
UG!
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by UG! »

regarding sources, there is a test equipment exemption from IRR99 this allows small companies (and presumably individuals) to own low activity sealed check sources without a licence for calibration of instruments. In fact i'm currently attempting to purchase some gamma check sources.
some other exemptions include phpsphoretic substances (a silly exemption as it only seems to apply to stuff which such a low activity that it most certainly wouldn't be glowing) and all waste generated in relation to the Po-210 poisoning of the Russian who’s name i am not even going to attempt to spell. Also smoke alarms and geological specimens iirc.
regarding generation of x rays and suchlike, all the regulations do, indeed apply to companies/businesses so it is not in theory illegal to make/run/own an x-ray generator in your home. weather the (most likely rather uninformed) police take a dim view of this is another matter.
i should probably know this in more detail, heaving nearly completed a cause on it. its all in a big pile of notes currently under my bed :)
i would advise a general knowledge of the regulations, and being careful who you tell what your doing. knowing the subject well so you can present a convincing argument why what your doing does not pose a danger is useful.
Nanos
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Nanos »

Thanks for those links, I've yet to read them in detail, and I imagine understanding parts will also be beyond me at the moment.

My impression at the moment is that radioactive substances beyond whatever the small limits are, would be an issue I'm sure.

What I'm less clear about is using say heavy water and producing radiation via a fusor, is that a, it needs a license thing or not ?

My experience of talking with officals about anything is that 50% say one thing, and 50% say another.. That and attracting attention to yourself by asking officals questions is not always a good idea.

(Is one reason why someone I know got their own mouse/cockroach traps to deal with an issue in a rented property, rather than call the local council who would come and then condem the property as unfit to live in and throw the people out onto the street!)
Nanos
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Nanos »

That sounds a bit more encouraging.

I reckon I'm 2 years away from getting a neutron producing fusor working, so I'm keen to address any issues which might make that an impossibility from the legal point of view, as I wouldn't want to get to week 103 and find out I need to spend £300,000 to buy my own home, spend a fortune building a special lab and then waiting who knows how long for a license..

(Counts his pennies and wonders if he is saving for some grinding paste for glass, or something more dull and sensible..)
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Richard Hull
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Richard Hull »

I am glad to see the UK folks hashing through their specific regs. It is good to know the precise letter of the law and then plan from that point where to move or how to proceed.

The UK is certainly the number two hot bed of fusor activity in the world today, based on these forums open activities.

There is something about the result of personal freedoms granted to english speaking people as far back as the Magna Carta that have seen them spread knowledge, commerce and science over the bulk of the known world. (That's right, this includes the Yanks, the Aussies and all the colonials). We are certainly a people who would never be slaves........to anything more than the ocassional dogma and, of course, popular opinion.

Freedom and the wealth of spare time and spirit allows us to question and investigate interesting avenues, found in new lands, new commerce, new inventions and most of all, new ideas.

There will always be a sheriff of Nottingham who is of questionable net value and often of limited intelligence, but a necessary evil at times.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
JohnCuthbert
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by JohnCuthbert »

John,
sorry to be a PITA but can you let me know what regulation requires that license?

I can't claim to be a lawyer or to have read those laws in detail but so far as I can see they are written entirely in terms of what companies or universities etc. can do. The powers that be don't seem to have realised that you could build a fusion reactor in the basement. (Perhaps we should be grateful to the likes of JET after all.) The big money boys have convinced the govt that you need to be a major player to start in this game.
Lets hope it stays that way.
Starfire
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Starfire »

I had contacted the local DOE Radiation inspector as I was intending to purchase a Am 421/ Be Neutron source and chatted with him for some time about the regs and what was permissable. He informed me that any source required a licence and an inspection to satisfy him of safe handling, use and storage - but N.Ireland may be different than the mainland. I did not persue it because of the local council/planing implications.

It is about accountability and traceability and of course the H& E implications for the individual and public. I think if basic procedures, responsiblity and accountabilities can be demonstrated there should be no problem - this is as it should be.
Nanos
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Nanos »

So does that mean as long as I don't buy anything that starts out radioactive, I'm ok ?
UG!
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by UG! »

hehe AmBe sources are a bit hefty though. aproxamatly 20GBq Am-241 is required for about 1M N/s IIRC. they also produce considerable high energy gammas.

while the exemption orders i mensioned are very valid, and in common use, thy do not extend to high activity sources, though some are more spesific than others.

see here:
http://www.radman.co.uk/resources/rsa93 ... orders.asp

Oliver
Starfire
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Re: UK Radiation License requirement ?

Post by Starfire »

This is very usefull Oliver Tks - I think the NI may be different - worth checking for me.
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Chris Bradley
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UK 'nuclear reactor' laws and regulations

Post by Chris Bradley »

I’ve been crunching through UK statutes recently, arising from the issue of a ticket by a fervid front-line employee of our Police state who decided the [what appeared to me to be an] amber light I went through was red. Being the very pedantic engineer type that I am (that hangs on every detail) I have now found no less that 5 reasons that the traffic lights can be shown to be defective to the prescribed legal specifications - so fear not for yours truly. Anyhow, I digress – I was looking up ‘wavelengths’ (to check on the colours of the lights with my little spectrometer!) and the “Nuclear Installations Act 1965” happened to pop up in the legal search engine.

It states;

“Control of certain nuclear installations and operations

1 Restriction of certain nuclear installations to licensed sites
(1) Without prejudice to the requirements of any other Act, no person shall use any site for the purpose of installing or operating—
(a) any nuclear reactor (other than such a reactor comprised in a means of transport, whether by land, water or air); or
(b) subject to subsection (2) of this section, any other installation of such class or description as may be prescribed, being an installation designed or adapted for—
(i) the production or use of atomic energy; or
(ii) the carrying out of any process which is preparatory or ancillary to the production or use of atomic energy and which involves or is capable of causing the emission of ionising radiations; or
(iii) the storage, processing or disposal of nuclear fuel or of bulk quantities of other radioacative matter, being matter which has been produced or irradiated in the course of the production or use of nuclear fuel,
unless a licence so to do (in this Act referred to as a “nuclear site licence”) has been granted in respect of that site by the Minister and is for the time being in force.
(2) Regulations made by virtue of paragraph (b) of the foregoing subsection may exempt, or make provision for exempting, from the requirements of that subsection, either unconditionally or subject to prescribed conditions, any installation which the Minister is satisfied is not, or if the prescribed conditions were complied with would not be, a relevant installation.
(3) Any person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years, or to both.]


…and in section 3

“3 Grant and variation of nuclear site licences
(1) A nuclear site licence shall not be granted to any person other than a body corporate”

…which, on the face of it, seems to rule out not only privately operating a fusor but even a demo fusor (“the carrying out of any process which is preparatory”).

But all is not lost. Just like the easily found technical defences that UK legislation supplies me against my red light ticket, so here the definitions fail to comprehend the possibility of amateur fusion;

“26 Interpretation
“atomic energy” has the meaning assigned by the Atomic Energy Act 1946 [which reads ““atomic energy” means the energy released from atomic nuclei as the result of any process, including the fission process, but does not include energy released in any process of natural transmutation or radioactive decay which is not accelerated or influenced by external means;”]
“nuclear reactor” means any plant (including any machinery, equipment or appliance, whether affixed to land or not) designed or adapted for the production of atomic energy by a fission process in which a controlled chain reaction can be maintained without an additional source of neutrons;


So, the UK legal definition of ”nuclear reactor” clearly does not include any fusion device. (I wonder how Culham engineers would feel about that, to be told that they’re not actually working on a nuclear reactor?!).

I presume it would also, potentially, not include an under-unity-fusion/fission or Rubbia’s particle-beam/thorium type reactors either.

The “atomic energy” bit is a little less clear cut and requires an argument, but, of course, in DD fusion one is creating a highly energized 4He nucleus which THEN undergoes a natural transmutation free of any further external means. Creating a highly energized nucleus of an otherwise non-radioactive species does not appear to be specifically prohibited, only the excitation of an extant nucleus to high energy. (I suppose it could be argued either way, but there’s hardly a precedent on any fusion power legal proceedings?!)

So in this interpretation, even if you DID crank up a privately owned neutron-emitting over-unity fusion power generator, there does not appear to be an immediate UK legal prohibition to stop it by these particular aforementioned Acts which provide a UK definition of “nuclear reactors”.
JohnCuthbert
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Re: UK 'nuclear reactor' laws and regulations

Post by JohnCuthbert »

OK, I'm still not a lawyer but I think that the bit which says you can't use a site for
"subject to subsection (2) of this section, any other installation of such class or description as may be prescribed, being an installation designed or adapted for— "
lets us off anyway.
Our installations are too weird to have been prescribed .
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Chris Bradley
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Re: UK 'nuclear reactor' laws and regulations

Post by Chris Bradley »

John Cuthbert wrote:
> "subject to subsection (2) of this section,

I think this bit simply covers sites that the Minister accepts are "not a relevant installation", but it is for him to decide that. There doen't appear to be a restriction on that acceptance being retrospective, so I guess if he accepts that it so *after* one has performed one's experiments, then it would be an 'absolvement' from one's 'fusing' indiscretions.

If he decides otherwise......then it looks like it'll be off for 3 months 'rehabilitation' at Her Majesty's pleasure, which no doubt would mean a comfy cell with colour telly, or those 'team building' activities abroad that some offenders are sent on (oh, not forgetting the GBP100 fine! Is anyone operating a nucelar reactor really going to get worried about a 100 fine???!!!).
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Chris Bradley
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Re: UK 'nuclear reactor' laws and regulations

Post by Chris Bradley »

Chris Bradley wrote:
> I’ve been crunching through UK statutes recently, arising from the issue of a ticket by a fervid front-line employee of our Police state who decided the [what appeared to me to be an] amber light I went through was red.
Sorry, it's well off topic for the forum, but just to get this off my [very annoyed] chest in the glare of the internet and to pre-empt any dawn-raids; I was told at the scene of this alleged red-light misdemeanor that I had been recorded (by said "Officer of Police state"'s on-board camera) on video. So I requested a copy. Surprise, surprise, that video material has gone missing, thus making the ensuing court case his word against mine...

I have technical defences, but that's not the point!....

Can anyone get me out of this place? Seriously...a job or something...anything! Preferably somewhere where you vote for the Senior Police Officers, AND have access to buy from a good range of vacuum hardware and other interesting paraphernalia!!
JohnCuthbert
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Re: UK 'nuclear reactor' laws and regulations

Post by JohnCuthbert »

Innocent til proven guilty. They have no evidence. Pretend you are American and sue them.
DaveC
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Re: UK 'nuclear reactor' laws and regulations

Post by DaveC »

John -

You've learned all too well.....

Dave Cooper
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