Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

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Brian McDermott
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Re: Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

Post by Brian McDermott »

I still have my July 2004 invoice from ASG, and I ordered 99.7% Deuterium, which is CP grade. I still cannot for the life of me figure out why it suddenly got so expensive. Maybe CP grade is out of stock, and they mistook Carl's request for that and instead quoted him on the high purity stuff that they did have.

Don't try Spectra Gases as they now have you sign some rediculous "Nuclear Non-Proliferation" sheet essentially stating that you will not be making an atomic bomb with this stuff. It is a silly company policy that no law says is required.
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Re: Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

Post by Edward Miller »

Here are some quotes from my inquiry with the Spectra Gases sales rep.

"I will also need to know your intended application for this product since deuterium and deuterated products are regulated by the government should we have the product available."

"Thank you for the application summary. Deuterium regulations have been getting strictly enforced since the creation of the Homeland security Dept of government. Since it is "nuclear proliferation" material we are taking this very seriously, not to mention there is personal civil penalty for anyone who is involved in selling this product without proper government approvals."

Oh it gets worse, keep reading from the next email....
"This applies to any and all deuterated products. You can see all of the regulations by using the following link to the Code of Federal Regulations part 110
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-colle ... r/part110/
It really applies to certain activities and uses and if you are exporting outside of the country. The NRC sets very precise amounts of each type of product that you can ship in a single shipment as well as annually."

And finally from the last email to which realized this company had totally lost it...

"The government restricts what you can do with Deuterium even in the
united states. If you are doing things like tritium production and it
is not under a DOE contract or with permission and license to do so you can be in trouble. Since I did not know if you are exporting the
deuterium or not I must ask the regulatory questions and be sure that
you understand the government position as it related to deuterated
products."

I searched on the Spetra Gases sales person's name and found a fire and brimstone letter written to the FDA about GMO foods. I never did hear back from them. Praxair however did fax me a non-proliferation form but again it was cheaper through ASG.
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Carl Willis
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Re: Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

Post by Carl Willis »

Well, here's an update:

Why did ASG's quote look so high?

>I apologize as I priced your request for some reason as Xenon >instead of
>Deuterium.
>
>You are correct and for that use a price of $250.00 for the 50 Liters.
>
>Refills would be $225.00

Not bad at all. (Their price for xenon looks reasonable too, should I ever need it.)

Now onto the matter of Spectra Gases. Indeed as Edmo observed, they must fashion themselves as some kind of Homeland Security apparatchiks these days:

>I will need to know what you are using this gas for (specific
>research application) since D2 is regulated by the government.

Their price on D2 is $275 with the cylinder, and refills are $185. So their gas is significantly cheaper than ASG's, but their cylinder is more expensive. Obviously, a consideration of this tradeoff is a moot point if Spectra is going to make the customer's specific application a matter of their interest and their records as a condition of sale. I wrote back asking the rep to cite the law that is the basis of her broad request. Other than the shipping regs for compressed gases and the export regs, I'm not aware of anything. Their open-ended demand to know what I'm doing is very different from simply asking for an assurance that I will not be exporting their product. Intrusive, unjustified, and excessively broad demands like these from Spectra indicate appeasement of the "fear science" culture, and unfortunately for both of us it means I cannot consider giving them my business until things change. This is especially unfortunate since I bought deuterium from Spectra three or four years ago and was treated like an adult human being back then.

On the other hand, I'm hesitant to construe the rep's rant to the FDA as firm evidence of personal characteristics that should concern her customers. Yes, she does mention "sin" and "crimes against nature" in there, but moves on to make specific rational arguments. You know, sometimes you need to embellish your argument with Bible-thumping Dobson-esque rhetoric in order to be given one iota of credence in our present government. (Why do you think our Dear Leader pledged $50B to fight AIDS in Africa? Because he's a charitable guy with a keen sense of what's best for the world? Um, hardly--it's because Bono thumped a Bible at Jesse Helms back in '01. True story.)

-Carl
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Brian McDermott
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Re: Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

Post by Brian McDermott »

The only place I could find the word "Deuterium" in CFR 110 was with regards to export, not domestic use.
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Re: Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

Heavy water (99.9%) is still at $55 per 100g from wilmad labglass.
http://www.wilmad-labglass.com/group/2147

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Edward Miller
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Re: Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

Post by Edward Miller »

What concerned me was that here you have a sales person with incomplete facts, that's scared of science to begin with, and that's quick to contact the government for a solution. I know I'm not doing anything wrong, but I don't really want to sit in a room explaining that to suits because some sales lady has lost her mind. Fear is what's driving this war and it's eroding away our liberties and freedoms.
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Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Carl Willis »

Well, I ended up getting the best deal--by far--from Matheson. All who bought deuterium recently, read this and WEEP:

> Here is your quote as requested;
>
> Deuterium CP 99.7% 1.77cf 50L
>
> Part#G1211276
>
> $157.00 2-3 WEEKS LEAD TIME

Heck, I won't even pay shipping on this because I can go pick it up on arrival at my local Matheson distributor. The bottle is refillable by Matheson. The one minor downside is that Matheson cannot supply the lecture bottle with the CGA-350 flammable gas fitting, only the CGA-170 LB fitting. Should be easy to get an adapter. I did have to fill out a credit app and set up an account with them, but now that's done, it should be easy to get not only deuterium but whatever other specialty gases I might conceivably need.

-Carl
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Jon Rosenstiel
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

Carl,

Thanks for this info. I believe I'll order a 50L bottle from Matheson.... just in case.

Jon Rosenstiel
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Richard Hull
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Richard Hull »

That was a very good price, indeed.

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Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Greg Courville »

$157.00 for the 50-l cylinder is exciting news, but even more so is the fact that, according to their catalog, they also offer a 20-l cylinder. Based on the pricing for the 50-l cylinder, I expect the price for the 20-l size might be well under $100, which is exciting for those of us with little cash.
I live only about 30 miles from the Newark, CA distribution center, so Matheson Tri-Gas is looking like a very attractive option. I attempted to register to use their online store on June 12th, but as of today my registration has yet to be activated (which apparently must be done manually on their end)...
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

Greg,
They say on their website that one should expect to receive an e-mail from them confirming registration within 2 hours, or at the latest the next morning.

I registered on the 22nd, also no word from them yet.

Hmmmm...

Jon Rosenstiel
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Brian McDermott
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Brian McDermott »

When you buy gas, the majority of what you pay for is the bottle. I once bought a lecture bottle of 99.9% purity N2 for $100, and there's no way the 50L of N2 was worth more than a few dollars. I bet the bottle itself is about $100, and the D2 itself is probably on the order of 20-50 bucks.
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Q »

indeed, most of the cost is likely the bottle. i used to fill some large O2 and acetyline bottles for about $20 each, but the initial investment was substantially larger.

Q
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

I e-mailed Matheson to find out why no response, their answer was that they don't ship to residential addresses. I guess they don't want to jack around with the little guy with his (or her) little order.

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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Carl Willis »

Hi Jon,

My account uses my residential address for billing and my friendly pseudo-employer's address for shipping. You don't have to use Matheson's delivery service if you can pick up your own cylinders from their local depot. I think you should just call the local office and try to set up an account. The online thing was pretty much a dead end for me also.

-Carl
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Richard Hull
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Richard Hull »

This is why I tend to order from my local welder supply shops.

Might cost a bit more but it is an over the counter sale for cash much like buying a pack of bacon. They even stock most gas fittings and adapters to wierd valve heads. I live in a large city though and that makes it a bit easier.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Greg Courville »

Pfft! I have an FBN form for Greg Labs on file with the county which lists my home address. This, I would think, should make it a "business" address for all intents and purposes, even though people live there. It's rather unprofessional of MTG, in my opinion, to simply ignore the registration request without volunteering an explanation. The polite thing to do would be, at least, to fire off a form letter explaining that they would rather not deal with individuals. It's not as if it would take a lot of effort on their part!
Once I have a more immediate need for deuterium, I shall try contacting them directly...
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

Greg,
The replies I got to my inquiries were very curt. No salutation, no complimentary closing, no signature. I definitely got the cold shoulder treatment.

Jon Rosenstiel
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Re: Last word on deuterium prices, 6/22/06

Post by Edward Miller »

A lot of people are scared of dealing with individual hobbyists and mad scientists working in their garages, not even to mention nuclear fusion hobbyists. In the chemical, gases, and materials industries it's all the same. It's been this way forever all the way back to Newton and the other alchemists working at night for fear they would be called out for witcherey. The public is afraid of what it doesn't understand and it definitely doesn't understand science.

I have heard it's a lot easier to order as a company.
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Deuterium - other applications?

Post by Todd Massure »

What other applications does deuterium gas have?

Todd Massure
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Richard Hull
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Re: Deuterium - other applications?

Post by Richard Hull »

Deuterium spectro lamps are a common public use for their UV spectrum. Beyond this and a few other minor and esoteric scientific chores, there is no use for Deuterium gas. It is far too expensive to casually design into an industrial process. besides, it is just hydrogen unless you are talking nuclear stuff.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Deuterium - other applications?

Post by Todd Massure »

So I guess if anyone at the gas supplier is paranoid enough to get nosey...I'm in the lamp business.
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Re: Deuterium - other applications?

Post by Edward Miller »

It's funny. If you've ordered other gases it's not a big deal. They're not asking from a paranoid perspective. D2 is just an unusual gas for these guys so they're like "Huh, what'r ya using that for?" Usually if you get into details about metabolic tracers, proteins, NMR, cancer treatments/cures, they'll be like ok whatever and get sidetracked. I've heard d2 lamps and lasers work too.

Again, the only time I had a real issue was with one specific SPECTRA GASES rep. All the other vendors were pretty cool. Praxair had some non-proliferation paperwork but it was no biggie.

DON'T ship to an apartment (it's HAZMAT and probably against the rules)
DON'T have a last name that sounds foreign.
DON'T be sketchy, answer the phone, call them, etc.
DO talk intelligently and articulately.
DO work with good, honest, reliable, and reasonable people such as
Advanced Specialty Gases.
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Re: Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

Post by SteveHansen »

One vendor I don't see mentioned:

I bought my 50L cylinder of 99.8 D2 from Cambridge Isotopes ( www.isotopes.com ) a few years ago. (It's still a virgin cylinder if anyone wants it.) They are in Andover, MA. Very friendly service. I just checked the price and it's $94 plus the cylinder at $175.
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Re: Update on deuterium prices...anything better out there?

Post by Raymond Jimenez »

I was able to get my residential address checked out by Matheson Tri-Gas, even though it took about a week for them to confirm the registration.

Refill: $130/100L (99.7% CP)
Rental for size 4 cylinder: $0.51/day

Should I just bite the bullet and buy the cylinder outright?

Raymond J.
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