Operational Fusor Audit

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Mark Rowley
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Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Mark Rowley »

Joe’s recent question about financial entropy has got me wondering….

How many operational neutron producing fusors are within our current membership? “Operational” being defined as the ability to establish silver activation conditions within one hour.

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Liam David
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Liam David »

+1 here.

Scrolling through Images du Jour, the construction forum, and the Fusioneer list, I wouldn't think there are more than a couple dozen operational fusors, with even fewer capable of silver activation. The "Elite Fusioneers" subset on the list, minus a couple and plus a few, seems about it.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Richard Hull »

I have always been out of this class as I run my fusor only once or twice a year, unless trying to upgrade or modify it. If you give me 5 days of build up running and loading the walls, after 6 months down time, I can neutron activate silver on the 6th day within 30 minutes of turning on the mechanical pump. I do it each year at HEAS, but condition it over the week before. I have run my fusor between 2018 and 2020 more hours total than from 2004 to 2017. As all poster here know I do both silver and indium, but switched over to Rhodium as it can be absolutely fully activated (saturated) to any level of flux in under 5minutes.

Given the above allowances...yes.... another +1

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Andrew Seltzman
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

A possible "technical yes" as well, although I too also run my fusor only a few times a year to test new modifications and regularly archive 1-2e6 n/s. My fusor is currently down at the moment due to a burnt through macor grid insulator that I haven't been able to replace due to MIT hobby shop being closed due to COVID regs.

So, given the above allowances as well, a +1 from me too
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Joe Gayo
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Joe Gayo »

All my cubes are dark at the moment for upgrades ... I expect one to be back online next week and given the past performance, it would have no trouble activating silver. I would estimate that 25% of the year I have at least 1 system producing neutrons.

If that counts ... +1
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

And +1 here.

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Richard Hull
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Richard Hull »

Lets face it, once we get a number of working or fully capable fusors, you might not have to use all your fingers to count and not even start on the toes. Extant fusors are a very rare breed virtually all that ever existed in amateur hands are long gone, disassembled or sold off to someone not running them.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Mine is operational and could activate silver within an hour.
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Mark Rowley
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Mark Rowley »

So we’re up to 8 !
Probably best to let this ride for a week before finalizing a tally.

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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Frank Sanns »

A few of us on your list have had neutron producing fusors for 20+ years that can be lit and produce in an hour. Activaton is another thing for me.

While early on, I did hit the 1E6 mark, activation was not a thing back then. We had redundant detectors and a second witness to verify what was occurring. For me, that was Carl Willis. Always cool times when Carl would visit.

My point is that since those first days, I have not run my Fusor to fully condition it and do high neutron runs. I am a 1E5 kind of guy. The reason being is the diverse experiments that I have done in my fusor. The vast majority of the experiments show lower neutron counts and it is obvious within that hour of degassing and the start of conditioning. These experiments, to me, are super valuable to understand what conditions MUST be present in a fusor. Beyond that, I just never take the multiple days of running to do something that is a given with any of the proven grid configurations.

I then will have to exclude myself from the one hour activation club as my larger chamber takes more time to condition and there is almost never a standard symmetrical inner grid in place. With that said, my fusor is always sealed with some experiment inside and can be brought to plasma glow within 5 minutes with the roughing pump and 15 minutes to high vacuum and deuterium introduced. A ruddy, hazy non neutron producing plasma will ensue. By the end of the hour, only 1E3 to 1E4 neutrons will be produced provided I have some kind of reasonable grid configuration inside.
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Bob Reite
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Bob Reite »

After attending HEAS 2020, I got my fusor set up to do activation of silver, but I was not satisfied enough to post the result, then the feedthrough developed vacuum side arcing problems above 22 KV which ended the attempts. I am now in possession of Doug's fusor which I am in the process of reassembling. I hope to have it under vacuum again in a couple of days, and if all goes well have it operating as a conventional Farnsworh fusor at the mega mark with Doug's excellent boron nitride feedthroughs by July. I'll post my progress in the Images de Jur thread that I had already started.
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Finn Hammer
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Finn Hammer »

With reference to this post:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=13936&p=92011#p92011

I want to report, that you can count me in too.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Mark Rowley
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Mark Rowley »

Welcome aboard Finn!

Richard, this list is pretty impressive. Would I be correct in thinking the group had about half these numbers a couple years ago?

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Richard Hull
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Richard Hull »

Gosh, I hate to admit it Mark, but you are probably correct! Out of maybe 100 amateur fusors over the years, we probably have more functional at this moment in time, (8 is it??), than at any other time since this 1998, on-line effort began. Let us count the people as some of us might operate more than one fusing device. It is the person with a working or workable fusion device that is to be counted. This new count is due to not only about 4 old boys, but the blast of first rate, top level folks who have been shining like super novae over the last few years. We seem to have, for the moment at least, lost the in-it-to-win-it DIY crowd. I feel this is due to tighter rules that will not allow anyone to get their name in the lists with a bent grid in an inverted peanut butter jar.

Frank Sanns is famous for decrying the lack of progress and often moribund activity here. I have been around since the beginning if not having really started this amateur business and am used to periods of reduced activity. Both Frank, Jon and I remember the early 2000's when we had a lot of really great activity with bold and knowledgeable contributors. Few, however, ever built a working fusor. Of the early stars, only myself, Frank and Jon are still standing. Carl Willis may have contributed more than any one person to this effort in all areas of amateur fusion for the 12 years he was here. It has been a ride here for sure with really very little to complain about and much to be proud of for all who have been part of the boom and bust times. The DIY era 2008-2018, (my estimate), built up slowly and died slowly. We started with great folks and information, learned as a group and by 2006 had about 3 or 4 working fusors with active running systems. That may have been our peak in working fusors with folks that stuck. It probably dropped to 3 when Carl left and has never regained until after 2018.

So now that we have had time to chime in, what is the tally? What is the number of people with working fusors? Who among us seems to be fusing and to be sticking here? I will say, I am sure it is the instantaneous record number over the last 23 years.

This is a great thread started by Mark due to Joe's original query. Regardless of the number, it is the best of times right now, harking back to those early times with but only 1 or 2 fusors with many top level contributors with learning and teaching coupled with the newness and vibrancy of the early effort at its peak.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by JoeBallantyne »

Given that the criteria was for operational fusors with neutron output sufficient for activation within an hour, I count 9 from this thread, ordered by posts in this thread:

Mark Rowley (not explicitly claimed in this thread, but implied from his posts, and evident from other recent posts/videos)
Liam David
Richard Hull
Andrew Seltzman
Joe Gayo
Jon Rosenstiel
Jim Kovalchick
Bob Reite (with his own, and now also Doug Coulter's fusor)
Finn Hammer
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Mark Rowley »

I’m inclined to add Tim Koeth to the list. Although not very active to the forums he is a large “behind the scenes” contributor and has helped many of us get to where we are (me included). He does have an operational fusor which appears to fall within this category. With that being said, I’d say we’re at 10.

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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

I think there are other amateur fusors out there that don't associate with the neutron club or the forum.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Richard Hull »

Tim is certainly active, but not an amateur. He has been a real friend and has attended a few HEAS conferences and given inspiring evening talks. He is employed by a University and uses their components to assemble his systems. He inspires others and has a great site for spurring on activity. I will note that a lot of his students were on fusor.net at one time and some did fusion, but their academic life and graduation saw them fall away with their fusors and activities here. This is a norm for many of the past true fusioneers here. They are out earning a buck and some now have families to tend to. Carl Willis, one of our greatest is now teaching with a family of his own in New Mexico. Fusor. net is not to others what it is to me or a few others currently active here. Folks do move on.

I am OK with Tim being included as #10 if all others agree. It is to be remembered that I would not let Tom Ligon into our amateur grouping as he had done fusion in 1996 for EMC squared while working on their large fusor as an employed engineer, getting paid by Doc Bussard. It was not until, when using his own money, time and talent, to build his own personal fusor that he was an amateur fusioneer... 2002.

As regards Jim's comment about hidden or phantom fusors, we are looking at ourselves as amateurs on fusor.net and not other people who choose to remain anonymous.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Mark Rowley
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Mark Rowley »

Makes perfect sense Richard. But gotta say, I think we’re all jealous of the gadgets and surplus he gets access to. Almost makes me wish I pursued a different career path 35 years ago!

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Richard Hull
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Richard Hull »

Now being retired, I can look back with little regret. At that critical juncture faced with a key decision of what I wanted to be in a world of 1963 demanding much of its men at a time of technological peaking and my being of a scientific and engineering bent, I had trouble between being a chemist, electronics engineer, or a career military officer. when push came to shove it was down to the EE or the Military. I applied to VMI and RPI (now VCU). I was rejected by VMI and accepted by RPI.

I loved all the sciences but my real love of long standing was electronics. Physics and chemistry were next and dabbled in since I was 8. I could have never been a physicist. I see that now. The specialization would have made my multi-faceted inserts in physics a sorrow as it would force focus me one narrow path. Plus, physics, in one specialty, is not a warranted career path for employment the way the burgeoning EE market was at the time. So no promotion to General or death as a second lieutenant in Vietnam, but a fully employed life in electronics for 4 years in the Air force and 45 years at the same civilian company was it.

I got to do everything I ever wanted to do in physics and electronics. It doesn't get any better than that.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Scott Moroch
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Scott Moroch »

I can confirm that Tim has an active, functioning fusor. I can also attest that all of Tim's amateur projects (including his fusor) are built using 100% surplus equipment that he acquired through friends, hamfests, personal funds, etc. I am sure he could tell you a story about each flange that went into his large fusor.

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Richard Hull
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Richard Hull »

I'm OK with the number 10. Anyone else care to throw in on this??

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

The term "amateur" will never apply to Tim Koeth. I am still in favor of counting his fusor. Based on where I know his fusor is and what I know about how it was built, I believe that it exists in the true spirit of this open source forum.

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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Tim Koeth »

Hi All,

Sorry about being quiet, I have been busy! Coincidentally I did fire up the big fusor this weekend.

Thanks all for the nice compliments! At heart and at home I am still an amateur!

It was in fact my being a serious amateur that paved the way to becoming a professional. Way back in the last century, I sat through a dead silent, ten minute, nerve racking period during my interview, while the Director of the Fermilab PhD Program for Particle Accelerators intensely read my self-initiated paper about my working cyclotron, which I had built in my parents basement. When completed, he sat up, leaned over and said "well, I see no reason why you won't be admitted to this program..."

I see this happening to many of the once young members of the this forum, who are now growing up and becoming leaders in their fields!

Please remember the true definition of an amateur: a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid rather than a professional basis. That is all of us!!! I am super fortunate have been able to make my amateur passion my career also, that is not lost on me.

As far as "Tim's big fusor" goes, it really was built by a set of friends, Scott, Jay, Jimbo, and helped commissioned by Mike and Jim Kovalchick and others, so it is all of ours. It was constructed 100% surplus parts from around the US. From the far reaches of Surplus City in NM, from Dayton Hamvention, from eBay (lots of eBay), and from a large industrial sale.

This fusor is totally worthy of being considered for the catalog of amateur fusors, but it should not solely be credited to me, but include all our friends listed above - I am happy to be the lead representative of it. :)

I promise I will try to be more active here, and of course looking forward to seeing everyone in October!!!

By the way, I think most here know, but I reiterate that to chronicle our groups activities, we've created a website to share our projects:

nuclearphysicslab.com

and the professional activities of myself and my research group are at

koethgroup.umd.edu

My lab is always looking for talented people - they are what make the group!

Enjoy!
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Richard Hull
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Re: Operational Fusor Audit

Post by Richard Hull »

Tim will be giving an evening talk at HEAS 32 -2021....He usually speaks at each HEAS, when present. He teased that it would be amazing. We have 5 speakers down now. This event already has about 50 folks signed up and the flea market is to be bigger as well.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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