Fusor V construction - the process long running

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Richard Hull
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

During the great Chinese coronavirus outbreak and economic crisis of 2020, I have been busy during my sequestration. I supply some images of the latest effort. Busy, busy, busy....

I have put a lot of thought...(I think) into the mounting of the chamber and have allowed myself plenty of low conductance opportunity in the vacuum system so the the fusor, itself can garner all the glory on a pedestal all to itself. One can guess and only wonder about my passion for the Glidden ancient blue color "captain" to set off the appearance. What used to be plain unpainted wood, now has a splash of color. I find that this "new thing" in addition to $8.25 entitles me to a supreme, mocha latte grande at Starbucks.

The cross is mounted and my cathode to be tested in my first pass operation is a 0.5 inch bored copper sphere. (see photo)

I have over much space allowed to the fusor V table for whatever comes to mind later, (detectors, and extra bits and bobs).

You may find this tedious and my simplistic and obvious annotations tiring, but this is done for the newbies who might, in future, like to see the various slow and often necessary steps in planning and assembling a system. This also serves to show what some of the components look like being labeled. Most newbies can see the pretty pictures even if they seemingly refuse to read the FAQs.

Sadly, in spite of total confidence in the vacuum sealing of the fore line, turbo and high vacuum line up to and including the fusor chamber valve, the cross will have 6 points to seal, 36 bolts to tighten correctly before it can be proof against leaks. These must be tested en mass. Blessedly, this one final thing to complete in the vacuum system is all I need worry with.

Somethings are yet to be done: gas and control lines, chamber pressure metering, camera/viewport mechanism, targeting options and possibilities. (the latter will just be two blank offs during testing and first run-ups)

There is far more tedious assembly and crafting that is yet to be done, so I "remain calm and carry on".

Richard Hull
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FusorV cathode1.jpg
Fusor V 3.28 (1) Anno.jpg
Fusor V 3.28 (3) Anno.jpg
Fusor V 3.28 (4) Anno.jpg
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Richard,
Have you thought about shielding? The crosses can really scream at 40 kV. Of course, my viewpoint is the worst, but I had to shield the cross itself.

I'm curious about your choice of copper for the grid. You're not worried about melting it?

Jim K
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Richard
I am a bit confused about the image of your HV feedthrough.
The CF flange (a Varian one) seems to lack the sharp edge to seal against the copper washer.
Please comment.
Roberto
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Scott Moroch »

Robert,

It is likely a rotatable conflat. He will have to insert the inner SS ring with the knife edge. It looks like the feedthrough is welded or Silver Soldered to the outer SS ring. Look at the picture I attached for reference.

Scott
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2-75-od-conflat-flange-193.png
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Scott
Understood!
thanks
Roberto
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Richard Hull
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

Scott caught it. It is rotatable. I took the ring off to protect it while handling and photographing it. Kinda' paranoid about keeping that stuff nick free.

Actually, it mates to another rotatable on the cross as the insulator is not on the insert, but on the flange itself. This would make it only rotatable to the next bolt hole angle on a fixed mating flange. Thus I chose one of the crosses rotatables for fine alignment.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

First light with air! I managed to seal all the flanges on the cross really well, apparently. Images tell the tale. I also reworked the plywood board power system for the baratron into a smart looking metal box. I also machined a mount for the camera that allows for 3-point spring loaded alignment and ran a #4 ground line to the fusor plate base.

I was smart. I let the mechanical pump drag the entire system with all the valves wide open, down over 20 minutes, As the entire system went from a temporary stall at 14.3 microns, all the way down to 9 microns where it truly seemed to bottom out, I powered fusor V up on residual air. No sparking or sparkling flashed were seen and the beaming is obvious. I ran up to 15kv into the system at 10ma. This was to glow clean a bit and heat the target flanges. Even with 150 watts going in for about 4-5 minutes, the copper Ball nor its copper stalk glowed. I am sure this will change when doing fusion. We will see. My next mission is to install the D2 gas metering system.

Damned turbo pump!! In spite my trying to kill the conductance with long lines, it is too deep a pumper and fast! Rats! I did ultimately turn it on only to see how long it would take to extinguish the glow. I did this at 10kv applied with 9 microns of air. From the time I pressed the on-button on the turbo pump I clicked my stop watch and when it stopped glowing I hit the stop watch and it took the pump 7 seconds to hit extinction. I quickly looked at the speed gauge and it was just off, zero maybe one tenth full speed still deep in the red zone. the baratron went into minus micron territory within 12 seconds about the time the pump hit its slow resonant point, buzzing the table mildly for a second or two. I continued to drop deeper into the minus zone until it settled down after the 4 minute wind up. I tried to seal the cross off with its valve and it dropped showing the baratron negative numbers dropping as it approached positive micron readings. The wait was a couple of minutes for it to hit 10 microns. I barely cracked the chamber valve and the baratron went negative (sub micron). There is going to be a trick operating this puppy without blasting D2 up like it is going out of style. I wish my turbo had a speed control.

I got to thinking....(always an iffy process here)... perhaps if I put a valve at the turbo, I could keep the pressure in the long KF 25 line down and then manage with the valve under the cross. I hate the thought of putting some sort of small holed diaphragm in one of the KF coupling ring centers to strangle the turbo.

Oh well, Enjoy the two pix. I did touch out the 20 or more little white pixels from the picture on the Monitor. Fusor IV killed a those pixels. I have a lot of cleaning up to do as the lab has almost no usable table space. The bench surfaces are all filled with the many hand tools, drills, etc.

Richard Hull

P.S. Sorry Jim, I did not respond to your shielding question. I imagine this smaller system will be a screamer X-ray wise! I will measure with air in a day or two once I put the Polyethylene collar around the base of the insulator, (as on fusor IV), so I can get the voltage up to x-ray level.
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Fusor V 1 3.30.20.jpg
Fusor V 2 3.30.20.jpg
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Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Richard,
Congrats on the new fusor. One nice thing about using air to glow clean is the ability to start your work at lower voltages without having to use a massive chamber pressure to light the plasma. To get 7 kV to light with d you would be pushing over 50 microns in that cross. I have to go higher than 25 kV to get to a pressure I think is reasonable for running my turbo.

Jim K
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

Thanks Jim for your input. I not only have a lot left to do, but a lot of fresh and different operational procedures to learn if this effort is to pay off to my satisfaction. I am a hard guy to please. Harder on myself than one might imagine. I am instantly willing to chuck a bad move to either return to an old venue or to try yet another approach. I am fully committed to make the most of the cross effort. I feel I am far better armed, outfitted and capable in assembling systems. When I look back at the 1997 first efforts by myself, as a neophyte, with no support beyond books, the many skills and accumulated knowledge I brought to the effort, I now realize just how much I had yet to learn.

I am drawn to this system due to the possibility of easy experimental alterations that the larger spheres lack, even if the neuts are not what I would like in the end.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

I show some X-ray data here in the single image attached. I have straightened up a bit and moved the TCP-40 turbo controller to the extreme left of the table, mounted the neutron counter and decided to operate to a decent x-ray level. With the Turbo on and fine tuning the chamber valve I operated at up to 20kV @10ma.
I was amazed at the near zero x-rays left, right and forward of the system. the camera is on the rear of the cross. directly behind the camera at the grey wall I read about 7 mr/hr, however at the top of the deuterium tank pointing down at the window I measured 50 mr/hr. on the 100 mr/hr range. For measuring front, right and left I used the 1mr/hr range and read no more than 0.2 mr/hr. Not bad yet as the rear wall is taking it on the chin.

No reading at all was apparent at the power panel.

Richard Hull
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Fusor V 3.31.20 X-ray (2).JPG
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

With my cross, the xrays are where you might imagine, the view port and feedthrough. At higher voltages, the cross tubes become transparent. The conflat fittings have some bulk them so that helps except out the beam target ends. I have now wrapped the cross tubes with a double layer of lead for a total of about 1/8" inch. I have a piece of thick lead on each beam end and a piece over my view port. Not much I can do about my feedthrough, but I have it facing to the back. I would like to do something different with my camera situation, but that's what I have for now. I dont have to spend time near my fusor except to take a neutron reading with a PNC and placing a neutron oven target. I am less than 1 mrem/he generally about 1 foot out at 40 kV now that I shielded.
I am working on permanent mounting of neutron detection to eliminate that dose as well.
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

I was thinking more in the line of a single total shield. I think, at first, I'll just do a "shadow cone" shield for myself if it gets intense. Thanks for the input. Lead wrap of the tube portion is a good idea.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

Well, take a good look at what is the finished fusor V. It may be the last time you see it!

I ran the system most of the evening and did fusion, but only a tiny amount. Extremely disappointing. Running at 29kv, 10ma and 23 microns. I got only 100 counts on the He3 counters in a minute on my best run.
I am ready to tear it down and put fusor IV back up in modified form. Boy, am I ready! However, I might try one of two more things in the effort before going back to fusor IV. It will keep me busy, at least.

I find that the heating is an issue and in spite of the additional fuel pressure, I did not see much to my satisfaction.

I am convinced it is all about the uniform huge surface area of the sphere that is the winner and 6-inch hemispheres are ideal up to about 60-70 kv.

For those with these systems, have any of you measured a favored direction for neutron emission, like the target conflats? I will probably try to cobble up and test a BC-720 system that is reliable and compact.

Richard Hull
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Fusor V 4.4 (2).JPG
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

I sit my pnc on top of one of my beam end blanks. At 40 kV and 10 mA I get about 750 cpm. The same BF3 tube measured 400 cpm held against your fusor IV doing a million n/sec. I'm sure my total neutrons are less, but the effective neutron flux I can get close to seems higher.

I think Jon R said that small grid size differences changed his numbers a lot. I would try different grids before giving up.

I'm also concerned about grid and chamber heating. I perceive my neutron numbers flattening as I raise voltage and current as things heat up. I really need to connect my tube to a scaler to really understand it.

I am also toying with the idea of putting metal inserts on my cross ends to bring it all closer in. If you look at Jon's cube, his blanks are closer to the grid than a 6 way cross brings it.

Just some thoughts,
Jim K
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

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As I see it, the grid in the cross systems are electron emitters, located where we do not want them. We want electron emitters at the blanks/targets where they can ionized the deuterium. To this end I hope to try a couple of things to save fusor V. Tungsten needles embeded in a circle way from the center of the flange might help. I attach a diagram here.

Also, some electrostatic ion guns might help if attached to both facing flanges. Another diagram here Note: the more current you can pour into the gun, the better. 10-20 ma is fine. The supply being positive is a snap to build.

Richard Hull
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Electrostatic Ion gun.jpg
W needle ionizer.jpg
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Scott Moroch »

I am curious why the tungsten needle in your ion source is at a negative bias with respect to the shell?

I would also suggest a single hole or group of holes around the center axis, rather than many perforations.

I have attached a picture of a successful deuterium ion source I have built. 1.2 kV across the glass, followed by a 20kV accelerating gap (in this case you would just use the grid).
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Deuteron Ion Source.jpg
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Richard Hull
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

In the gun, I did get the polarity backwards. Sorry 'bout that. I have corrected it, now, in the above original post. the bias on the needle makes it an electron high field emissive source to ionize the gas and the grounded (now negative) perforated plate attracts the deuterons some, as canal rays will go through the plate and see the huge attractive negative grid electrode. The patterned hole plate is a very inefficient positive HV extractor.

I did not mean to shotgun blast holes. Look at the nicely patterned electrostatic guns in the photos of Farnsworth's team......holes like that...

I repost the image here from my Farnsowrth history group. note the rather large radial circular holes and a rather tiny central hole




Richard Hull
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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Maciek Szymanski »

That’s very interesting idea. I’m looking forward for the results.
The peripheral holes in the cathode makes sense for me. As the most of the ionization in the discharge is done in the cathode region by the secondary electrons the central solid portion works as a target for ions and secondary electron generation. Of course these ions will be lost for the fusor, but the anode-cathode discharge current is the “engine” producing ions. some of them will pass through the holes and will be extracted by the main fusor cathode. For other hand I doubt if the needle type anode will do any help. The main function of the anode is collecting electrons and repelling ions in the positive column so to my humble opinion the flat plate may perform better. But as always the experiment will give the answer.
Also looking at the photo of those electrostatic ion guns I’m wondering if the black rings are the ferrite magnets for improving ionization?
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Dan Knapp »

If you need a way to make really sharp tungsten tips, I suggest using the electrochemical etching method used to make scanning tunneling microscopy probes. I used this approach when I tried to make a sharp focus cold cathode electron source. I wasn't able to get the electron current I was seeking, but I did manage to make some very fine points. The method is the following:
I used 0.020 inch tungsten welding electrodes with 2% cerium. The points were electrochemically etched in 2 molar sodium hydroxide solution using 4.0 VDC at about 20 mA. The tungsten rod is the anode, and a carbon rod is used for the cathode. The trick is make the etching occur only at the water air interface. You insulate the end of the tungsten rod (I used teflon insulation stripped from insulated wire) and then support the rod hanging into the etching solution with only about a millimeter of the rod above the insulation wetted. The etching takes place at the air solution interface until the bottom insulated section of tungsten drops off. You have to watch it and immediately turn off the current when the tungsten end falls off; contineed etching will eat away your point. The photo below shows one of these tips.
W tip.JPG
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

The second drawing ( circles) is not related to the ion gun at all.. it is a totally separate idea for field emission ionization at the two conflat end plates to create local ionization in that desired region.

The first drawing is the gun by itself. Yes, a magnet (premanent or coil) could be slipped over the gun to aid ionization. There is nothing to prevent a filament replacing the needle in the gun. Tests would be needed to show any results. These are the only reasons I am giving the cross any chance at all in my future.

I did just about quadruple my fusion rate to over 500 counts per minute last night as I approached 30 kV, but arcing stem-to-sharp edge of the cross juncture to ball stem foiled any increase. I will have to alumina tube the thing, I guess to see if that improves things. I would typically get 50,000 cpm at the mega n/s mark with fusor IV using the identical 3He system.

Finally, hyper fine points would be ablated away instantly as they would become incandescent due to the current and round off, to become a W deposition source.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

At some point I will institute a new fusor V construction effort based on a spherical system. This fusor effort is now terminated the kludged fusor III in 2000 did far better at 150kn/s. I'll go with "easy", working the laws of physics to my total advantage. Smooth, even field distribution over a never arcing distance with plenty of absorbing and de-sorbing surface area.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Richard,
I'm sorry to hear about the fruits and lack there of, if your efforts. My numbers are bad now, but they started out fairly good. My original numbers were higher on my pnc than they were when I held it against your Fusor IV doing a million per second. I was originally bolstered and remain so by Jon Rosenstiel's cube fusor success. He stated that his grid size was important, and I will try some more to find the right size and material.

I experienced a lot of the clearance issues you did and sacrificed three Harbor Freight meters, a mini convectron, and a vacuum instrument controller to sustained arcs. It would start with normal grid cleaning type of stuff at new, higher voltages, and occasionally some of little bursts managed to strike continuous arcs. In my previous fusors, the only time this happened was within the path my stem followed from my feedthrough before it entered the open space of the chamber. The good news for me is that all this has pretty much stopped now. Of course it will all start again when I pop my chamber to look into what's going on with my lowering numbers and install a new grid.

I think I will endeavor on a little more. I want to find a grid that wont go to near melting at 400 W. I may look at blanking off my beam ends differently and or try cooling.
Call me stubborn, but I'm not done yet.

Regards,
Jim K
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I looked into this issue of "smaller" chamber size some time ago and posted the results here in the forum - now, what I mean by smaller chamber wasn't my building a actual smaller chamber but rather (and this is the key) creating a smaller grounding grid. That is, rather then my larger volume chamber walls being the grounding plane, I installed a wire cage inside my existing chamber to create an equivalent "smaller volume".

What I discovered and reported here was that chamber size wasn't the key effect nor was the design of the high voltage supply grid (I used both the same HV grid and chamber.) Rather, when I created a half volume grounding wire cage (reducing my volume by 50%) within the existing chamber, I most certainly did see a 50% increase in neutron counts (measured via a bubble counter so I know it was real.)

The key difference between the two systems (large volume vs. "small" volume) wasn't just a simple volume reduction but rather my chamber operating pressure went from 5 microns (for a stable plasma) to 12-15 microns. My operating voltage/current were also the exact same for both systems. This smaller grounding cage system allowed my deuterium pressure to be greater. Hence, this provided a greater number of available deuterons within the chamber while maintaining the exact same plasma wattage (current & voltage.) The higher deuterium pressure appears to be the key as my experiment clearly showed.

Getting a greater neutron count for identical plasma energy isn't a function of chamber size itself but rather the greater operating pressure one can then create using the identical wattage (voltage and current.) The goal people need to go after is greater deuterium pressure not just a simple smaller volume. If one can raise the chamber pressure for the same energy (voltage/current) than the neutron production will be increased.

(aside; original experiential post: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12048)
Last edited by Dennis P Brown on Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Easier said than done Dennis.
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Re: Fusor V construction - the process long running

Post by Richard Hull »

The interesting part of starting over is how do I assemble the new system so that I need not ever touch the fabulous work I did on the entire vacuum system. I want to just remove the cross and plug in the new system. I am so glad I doubled the surface area of the fusor level table. I think the next "new" Thread might be entitled "Fusor V Redux".

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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