Use of Protium for Fusion

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David Petroski
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Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by David Petroski »

I am building a relativly simple fusor based of the follwing design:
https://makezine.com/projects/make-36-b ... ear-fusor/

Deuterium tends to be quite expensive, so I would like to know if protium would work as an alternative. I know the energy produced would not be as much as it would have been had I used deuterium, but I am simply looking for any sort of visual effect. A "star in a jar" effect would be ideal. Would 10kV to 12kV be enough power to reliably fuse protium into helium - 2?
ian_krase
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by ian_krase »

No.

12 kV is not even enough to fuse Deuterium. Also, the Makezine fusor is grossly underpowered to do fusion at all.

Proton-proton fusion is extremely slow and unlike deuterium, tritium, etc (or even harder reactions like proton-boron) it never gets faster.

Nobody even considers it for artificial fusion processes, not even the big guys. If you tried to do it, you would probably get more fusion from the 1/6000 of all hydrogen atoms that are actually deuterium than you would from the protium.

You will get the *visual* effect (which is not fusion, but just the plasma and ion flow which creates fusion if both sufficient power and deuterium are present) just fine though.

You can even get it with the residual air left in a vacuum chamber when pumped with a rotary vane pump. Getting the correct "star mode" visual effect is a good thing (and not a trivial accomplishment, I have never done it), which indicates you have the kind of control over vacuum and energy to move towards fusion, but actually getting fusion is much harder since you need to carefully control vastly higher voltages.


Deuterium is one of the less expensive parts of a working fusion setup (compared to a neutron detector, a power supply that gives both high voltage and high current at the same time, a diffusion pump, etc).


I recommend that you go with the Make Magazine demo fusor, which you can also use for some other cool projects like silver plating on glass, and just use air. From there you can learn and build up towards an actually fusion-generating fusor.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by Richard Hull »

Proton-proton fusion is absolutely impossible at the amateur level. It is virtually impossible with the larger multimillion dollar accelerators where millions of watts are used to barely do it with a net energy loss in the trillions of watts of electrical power spent per watt of produced proton-proton fusion. Such fusion is solely reserved for stars. Forever and ever.

In short, not 'one' person who has ever lived on the earth has ever done protium fusion.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
David Petroski
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by David Petroski »

ian_krase wrote:No.

12 kV is not even enough to fuse Deuterium. Also, the Makezine fusor is grossly underpowered to do fusion at all.

Proton-proton fusion is extremely slow and unlike deuterium, tritium, etc (or even harder reactions like proton-boron) it never gets faster.

Nobody even considers it for artificial fusion processes, not even the big guys. If you tried to do it, you would probably get more fusion from the 1/6000 of all hydrogen atoms that are actually deuterium than you would from the protium.

You will get the *visual* effect (which is not fusion, but just the plasma and ion flow which creates fusion if both sufficient power and deuterium are present) just fine though.

You can even get it with the residual air left in a vacuum chamber when pumped with a rotary vane pump. Getting the correct "star mode" visual effect is a good thing (and not a trivial accomplishment, I have never done it), which indicates you have the kind of control over vacuum and energy to move towards fusion, but actually getting fusion is much harder since you need to carefully control vastly higher voltages.


Deuterium is one of the less expensive parts of a working fusion setup (compared to a neutron detector, a power supply that gives both high voltage and high current at the same time, a diffusion pump, etc).


I recommend that you go with the Make Magazine demo fusor, which you can also use for some other cool projects like silver plating on glass, and just use air. From there you can learn and build up towards an actually fusion-generating fusor.
Thank you, I did not know that the makezine fusor was so under powered. It seems like I have much more research to do.
ian_krase
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by ian_krase »

Pretty much. Read all the FAQs. They have some major gaps but they are very helpful.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I would like to add - besides reading the various FAQ's, do not buy stuff without confirming that it is what you will need (many power supplies are useless as are many types of vacuum pumps.) If you do not think you can obtain deuterium, really, game over. Best to not build a fusor and instead, focus on a demo unit like you have discussed. Become a plasma club member to start. Some here make their own deuterium but that isn't cheaper than buying the gas (just the opposite; it is considerably more expensive - just over comes the issue that most companies will not sell deuterium gas to individuals.)
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

The site you reference is just a lot of talk to explain an interesting area of physics and show someone how to create a real plasma (not fusion.) Real fusion, besides requiring deuterium and enough power, as the previous person noted also requires detection of neutrons. That is a very complex area if one does not buy a "Bubble detector" (good only for about six months as I understand them.) Since deuterium is an issue for you, maybe just focusing on that might be useful. Depending on cost, look into how people here make their own. That would be a very interesting project in of itself. In a similar direction, maybe developing a neutron detector is a worth while project. Using a Russian BF3 tube (not very expensive) and making the power supply and counter system would be an excellent and very useful project. There are good papers here on that subject.
Silviu Tamasdan
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by Silviu Tamasdan »

The easiest way to deuterium these days is electrolysis of heavy water, on an amateur level. That is the way I'm going (coupled with a custom deuterium storage system I'm working on, so I don't have to wait for it to generate while I'm attempting fusion).
The components of my deuterium system - that I will post about once I know it works fine - cost me about as much as the neutron detection setup. That's without the cost of the heavy water (which I got about 100ml of for free).
There _is_ madness to my method.
Rex Allers
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by Rex Allers »

Two things that I don't think have been mentioned.
  • To the original poster, please look at the full title of the section you are posting in.
    "Construction / Technical Do not post simple questions here. Use the New User Chat area -- Fusor Construction & Operation (& FAQs)"

    What you are asking is a question that gets asked a lot by new members. It probably really should have been posted in the "New User Chat" section. The idea is to not clutter the topic-specific sections with questions or ideas that get asked over and over. Another example... "Is this xyz ebay thing good for a fusor power supply, or a vacuum pump, or ... "

    If you are not sure, it is probably best to post in the New User Chat.

  • I think the makezine article uses a glass chamber. If you want to scale up to a power that could do fusion, that glass could be dangerous. A lot of this is in the many FAQs.
Rex Allers
ian_krase
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by ian_krase »

I built something that approximates the Makezine fusor and uses only a 23 mA OBIT for power, and it managed to create a disturbingly warm hot-spot on the glass.
Silviu Tamasdan
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by Silviu Tamasdan »

You may have achieved glass fusion (hark, hark)
There _is_ madness to my method.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Or should that be glass fusion - Quark, Quark
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Richard Hull
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Re: Use of Protium for Fusion

Post by Richard Hull »

No matter how much we warn against glass, some will build a demo device in a bell jar or the like and try and push it too far. I know I did, in 1997, thinking that Pyrex or Kimex could take it......It couldn't. Fortunately, watching a nice dime sized flake of glass blow off the inner wall of my new, $500.00, Kimex bell jar put the fear of God in me.....I immediately made fusor III out of SS.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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