Can we make a star? NIF

Reflections on fusion history, current events, and predictions for the 'fusion powered future.
Post Reply
dbrown
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:41 pm
Real name:

Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by dbrown »

There is one aspect of a plasma tokamak (very small 't') that is both missed by the fission breeder community and even most fusion 'experts' - ITER the future piece of extremely costly junk ... I mean research reactor, can produce enough fission fuel to supply ten regular nuclear fission reactors with fuel per year when it is is operated in its normal pulsed mode and a very low level blanket of low grade fuel is surrounding it. ITER compares very well to the fact that it takes ten breeder fission reactors (filled with a lot of highly dangerous Pu that can lead to run away fission explosion) in order to supply just one other reactor per year with fuel.
User avatar
Chris Bradley
Posts: 2930
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 7:05 am
Real name:

Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Chris Bradley »

Dennis Brown wrote:
> There is one aspect of a plasma tokamak (very small 't') that is both missed by the fission breeder community and even most fusion 'experts' ...can produce enough fission fuel to supply ten regular nuclear fission reactors

How does a tokamak produce fissile material? never heard that one before.
User avatar
Rich Feldman
Posts: 1470
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:59 pm
Real name: Rich Feldman
Location: Santa Clara County, CA, USA

Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Rich Feldman »

In 2009 I attended a technical seminar presented by a director of NIF. (Now that the facility has been dedicated, the program is technically NIC, the National Ignition Campaign).

The show included official marketing concept of utility-scale power from laser-driven D-T implosions, and the associated fuel cycle. The tritium was bred from lithium in neutron capture blanket. Most of the total power was from fission of neutron-irradiated waste from fission reactors -- "destroy the waste by burning it for power".

I asked why that wouldn't have, as a limiting natural resource, mine-able lithium deposits. Which are already in great demand for electrochemical batteries. IIRC the answer was dismissive.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Richard Hull »

All the above is correct. Dennis had the best overall view. The real winner here is our strategic stockpile stewardship program. Better weapons through better and more secretive testing. Lighter, more easily deliverable, efficient and effective thermo-nuclear weapons. After all, as the devil spoke to Don Juan in G.B. Shaw's Man and Super Man, "Man's heart is in his weapons."

The ignition bit is for the public polish on the nuclear stockpile stewardship apple.

No real power here.....nothing to see here.........keep moving along, please......nothing to see..........watch your step lady..........Hey, buddy, don't touch that; keep in line, please...... have a nice day folks.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Richard Hester
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 12:07 am
Real name:

Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Richard Hester »

My understanding (assuming any decent ignition is attained) is that a laser fusion device would have to pop off about 10 times a second in order to generate grid-worthy power. I doubt that the current setup could attain 10pops/day. The optics would probably give out some place during the first 10 pops, anyway. Each explosion would be the equivalent of a stick or two of dynamite, so you'd need the much-vaunted circulating lithium blanket for a shock absorber as well as for neutron recovery/tritium breeding. I haven't seen any concerted development effort for that blanket, just some words and some "artist's conceptions".

For weapons testing, one pop every week or two would be the bee's knees.
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Richard Hull »

Long ago, I gave a complete report along with URL's related to the NIF debacle in mid-stream as congressional and GAO probes got launched.

So horribly dismayed were the weaponeers who were counting on a fixed "use" date and NIF startup for idea testing that they found a large number of workarounds to test a number of their ideas at other labs. As time went on and delays continued, many weaponeers actually started to question the value of the entire project, having found so many workarounds in the interim.

Now that NIF is, ostensibly, up and running, the weaponeers are happy, at last and the PR department remains the longest fully staffed section at the site. We all await yet more claims of wonderment and fusion power while the real business conducted there gets the big red "Top Secret" stamp on all reports.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Post Reply

Return to “Fusion --- Past, Present, and Future”