Can we make a star? NIF

Reflections on fusion history, current events, and predictions for the 'fusion powered future.
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Kreso
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Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Kreso »

Dear gentlemen,

I am pasting the link to Steve Jurvetson's flickr blog of his visit to National Ignition Facility:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/4196928046/

Kind Regards,
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Chris Bradley »

A link to a blog of seemingly yet another individual mislead on the purposes of NIF.
lutzhoffman
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by lutzhoffman »

Hello

Not than anyone probably cares, but here is my 2 cents worth:

As I see it the purpose of NIF is to test thermonuclear weapons and a brilliant work around,of the test ban treaties. Second it may be to answer the question of the feasability of developing pure fusion weapons.

A pure fusion weapon would represent the perfect weapon of "deniability" 14MEV neutrons produce little detactable long term activation, most isotopes formed are short half life positron emiting isotopes. Plus an intense fast neutron pulse could do many things, especialy given the absence of the fission trigger explosion, and fallout. 14MEV neutrons will fission U as well.

A few days after the "mysterious" event in remote Pakistan, the news report may be:

"We think that it may have been a dirty snowball type of comet impacting the atmosphere similar to the Tunguska event according to a US government spokesperson. Due to refugees, and security issues it has taken several days for researchers to reach the affected area "

or better yet:

"It apears that a nuclear facility in the middle eastern country of XXXX has suffered a criticality accident, the XXXX storage facility which was said to warehouse a considerable quantity of enriched Uranium, suffered an explosion last night, and the release of some radioactivity. Government sources are unsure of what caused the accident, but it has resulted in the severe contamination of the facility. It is expected to take an extensive investigation, and years of clean up, before the cause can be determined, and the facility safely abandoned "

That's the positive interpretation, I will leave the negative ones to the imagination.

But for power generation, come on, this method is far to complex, the cost would far exceed any potential gain. It would be like using a large accellerator to make a gold jewelry from mercury.
RobertTubbs
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by RobertTubbs »

There are a few comments I'm not gunna touch with a ten foot pole.

My two cents however...

1) This thing does allow (to a certain degree) for study into pure fusion weapons, which I love for a cornucopia of reasons. The possible revival of nuclear pulse propulsion being only one of them.

2) I cannot in any way, shape or form see this method as economical. I'd sooner make animal sacrifices to ITER.

Thanks for the link to the cool photo album,
RT
Chris Trent
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Chris Trent »

Well,

It certainly appears to me that the intent of the NIF is to provide a window into the nuclear detonation process. Simply put, it is a way to validate models of how nuclear reactions work.

It is also a window into a microcosm of the dense, high temperature, nuclear world that no one has really had a chance to study.

I'm afraid though that the most useful data will never make it into civilian hands.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Richard Hull »

That's a fact jack! The good data that is of "dual use" will remain hidden while fluff and puff will gush out the door. After all, they do have to impress the public to keep the funding going; it is a never ending process.

Stockpile stewardship is "the" mission, and job one! The also-ran of a fusion powered future for you and me is the beautiful veneer polish on this effort that puts a sparkle in our eye, yet no watts on the grid....as always.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Kreso
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Kreso »

Dear gentlemen,

Just following the story (or "fluff and puff"):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/4844626925/

Kind Regards,
dbrown
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by dbrown »

I've talked to some of the people who use the NIF for 'research' and yes, its only purpose is weapon studies - that is, it is an indirect drive system (uses lasers to heat a cylinder that then heats up and produces x-rays that finally drive the pellet to implode - just like an A-bomb does to heat and ignite the H-bomb section.) The strange part is the mirror system cannot handle the full beam power (even with the half number of lasers they were forced to now use due to budget cuts - so if they fire the full system, some of the main optical system will be destroyed and is VERY costly to replace.)

Relative to power production - No, it can not and never will produce even breakeven fusion and was never designed to act like a system that can produce power (only a direct drive system has that ability.)

I will bet that all you ever hear from them is that they are getting ready for the next step to achieve ignition but it will always be soon, never really happen … .
Joe Jarski
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Joe Jarski »

The NIF looks kind of complicated to me - I think I'll stick with building a Fusor instead.

The biggest surprise though, was seeing Mr. Hull's new Fusor V chamber on page 58 of the photobook!
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Chris Bradley »

Fluff and puff!

"Anyway, including lithium in the salt bath can generate more tritium fuel, and so the only fuel needed is deuterium". This remains an unproven speculation, and will remain unproven, and be the next unproven speculation to be proven, after anyone makes a fusion reactor fire up. I anticipate that, were DT reactors to fire up, the T would come from fission reactors for a long time after, until fusion reactor neutron budgets are better understood.
dbrown
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by dbrown »

There is one aspect of a plasma tokamak (very small 't') that is both missed by the fission breeder community and even most fusion 'experts' - ITER the future piece of extremely costly junk ... I mean research reactor, can produce enough fission fuel to supply ten regular nuclear fission reactors with fuel per year when it is is operated in its normal pulsed mode and a very low level blanket of low grade fuel is surrounding it. ITER compares very well to the fact that it takes ten breeder fission reactors (filled with a lot of highly dangerous Pu that can lead to run away fission explosion) in order to supply just one other reactor per year with fuel.
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Chris Bradley
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Chris Bradley »

Dennis Brown wrote:
> There is one aspect of a plasma tokamak (very small 't') that is both missed by the fission breeder community and even most fusion 'experts' ...can produce enough fission fuel to supply ten regular nuclear fission reactors

How does a tokamak produce fissile material? never heard that one before.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Rich Feldman »

In 2009 I attended a technical seminar presented by a director of NIF. (Now that the facility has been dedicated, the program is technically NIC, the National Ignition Campaign).

The show included official marketing concept of utility-scale power from laser-driven D-T implosions, and the associated fuel cycle. The tritium was bred from lithium in neutron capture blanket. Most of the total power was from fission of neutron-irradiated waste from fission reactors -- "destroy the waste by burning it for power".

I asked why that wouldn't have, as a limiting natural resource, mine-able lithium deposits. Which are already in great demand for electrochemical batteries. IIRC the answer was dismissive.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Richard Hull
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Richard Hull »

All the above is correct. Dennis had the best overall view. The real winner here is our strategic stockpile stewardship program. Better weapons through better and more secretive testing. Lighter, more easily deliverable, efficient and effective thermo-nuclear weapons. After all, as the devil spoke to Don Juan in G.B. Shaw's Man and Super Man, "Man's heart is in his weapons."

The ignition bit is for the public polish on the nuclear stockpile stewardship apple.

No real power here.....nothing to see here.........keep moving along, please......nothing to see..........watch your step lady..........Hey, buddy, don't touch that; keep in line, please...... have a nice day folks.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Richard Hester
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Richard Hester »

My understanding (assuming any decent ignition is attained) is that a laser fusion device would have to pop off about 10 times a second in order to generate grid-worthy power. I doubt that the current setup could attain 10pops/day. The optics would probably give out some place during the first 10 pops, anyway. Each explosion would be the equivalent of a stick or two of dynamite, so you'd need the much-vaunted circulating lithium blanket for a shock absorber as well as for neutron recovery/tritium breeding. I haven't seen any concerted development effort for that blanket, just some words and some "artist's conceptions".

For weapons testing, one pop every week or two would be the bee's knees.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Can we make a star? NIF

Post by Richard Hull »

Long ago, I gave a complete report along with URL's related to the NIF debacle in mid-stream as congressional and GAO probes got launched.

So horribly dismayed were the weaponeers who were counting on a fixed "use" date and NIF startup for idea testing that they found a large number of workarounds to test a number of their ideas at other labs. As time went on and delays continued, many weaponeers actually started to question the value of the entire project, having found so many workarounds in the interim.

Now that NIF is, ostensibly, up and running, the weaponeers are happy, at last and the PR department remains the longest fully staffed section at the site. We all await yet more claims of wonderment and fusion power while the real business conducted there gets the big red "Top Secret" stamp on all reports.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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