I am posting a small YOU tube report by some entity called the new energy institute. Forget them, they are inconsequential.
The reality is that they are actually interviewing navy researchers at the San Diego Naval SPAWAR research facility. These folks are still looking into CF using a D20 + palladium chloride electrolyte in a cell that is shown. These folks have the gear including a tritium hunting mass spec. Not much hard data here but the navy is committing personnel, resources and some small treasure in the quest.
They are still veryl serious about this. However, I am sure this is not a multi-million dollar crash effort. Check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke_ZhgAKjhs
I still hold there may be something to cold fusion, though more as an opening to greater research into unappreciated fusion processes as opposed to seeing CF moving fusion onto the power grid.
Have I told you how much I hate and love You tube?!
At the absolute opposite end of the CF spectrum you should all check out this character......What a sad balloon head......What an absolute hoot!
The guy demonstrates conclusively and convincingly that, given his power company's willingness to sell him electricity, he can, indeed, boil water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLUeGX3hNpU
Richard Hull
Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
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Richard Hull
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Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
You have to admit that the second video was a bit humorous, especially when he said "I'm going to put a little in" and then dumps about a tablespoon of KOH into the water.
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JohnCuthbert
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Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
I'm sorry but I don't see what they are trying to achieve.
They are putting a high voltage PSU across the cell but, since the electrolyte is a conductor, all they are doing is uptting a field across the plastic walls of the cell. It's hard to see how they think that will achieve anything.
Their hydrophone will pick up noise from bubbles and possibly from corona discharges if the HT is high enough, so what?
Incidentally, I think it's a scintillation counter they are using rather than a Mass spec.
They are putting a high voltage PSU across the cell but, since the electrolyte is a conductor, all they are doing is uptting a field across the plastic walls of the cell. It's hard to see how they think that will achieve anything.
Their hydrophone will pick up noise from bubbles and possibly from corona discharges if the HT is high enough, so what?
Incidentally, I think it's a scintillation counter they are using rather than a Mass spec.
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
John Cuthbert wrote:
> I'm sorry but I don't see what they are trying to achieve.
> They are putting a high voltage PSU across the cell but, since the electrolyte is a conductor, all they are doing is uptting a field across the plastic walls of the cell. It's hard to see how they think that will achieve anything.
> Their hydrophone will pick up noise from bubbles and possibly from corona discharges if the HT is high enough, so what?
> Incidentally, I think it's a scintillation counter they are using rather than a Mass spec.
IIRC they are finding neutron tracks virtually identical to fusion , and substances in the post-operation electrolyte virtually identical to DD fusion products - helium, ashes, etc. Controls to rule out outside contamination of the electrolyte have apparently been anal retentive.
Appears to be an anomalous fusion reaction. Wouldn't bet a dime on it ever generating any net power, but it does appear to be fusion. Fusion that standard theory says shouldn't be possible.
Duane
> I'm sorry but I don't see what they are trying to achieve.
> They are putting a high voltage PSU across the cell but, since the electrolyte is a conductor, all they are doing is uptting a field across the plastic walls of the cell. It's hard to see how they think that will achieve anything.
> Their hydrophone will pick up noise from bubbles and possibly from corona discharges if the HT is high enough, so what?
> Incidentally, I think it's a scintillation counter they are using rather than a Mass spec.
IIRC they are finding neutron tracks virtually identical to fusion , and substances in the post-operation electrolyte virtually identical to DD fusion products - helium, ashes, etc. Controls to rule out outside contamination of the electrolyte have apparently been anal retentive.
Appears to be an anomalous fusion reaction. Wouldn't bet a dime on it ever generating any net power, but it does appear to be fusion. Fusion that standard theory says shouldn't be possible.
Duane
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
In second ecperiment he uses ordinary water which is impossible to fuse.
however if you use tritium as I know you can easily perform "fusion" with hammer. so even if you register neutrons it does not matter, tritium is easy to break.
however if you use tritium as I know you can easily perform "fusion" with hammer. so even if you register neutrons it does not matter, tritium is easy to break.
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
> IIRC they are finding neutron tracks virtually identical to fusion ,
Nah, thats the problem with CF, there are no MeV neutrons measured, but ...
>and substances in the post-operation electrolyte virtually identical to DD fusion products - helium, ashes, etc.
people report He all the time. So where does the He come from in tbe absence of neutrons produced?
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Richard Hull
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Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
The detected He and T Must come from somewhere. INDEED!
With none of the normal signature particles and debris from fusion as we are taught, there might be another process going on that is unseen and unappreciated.
Most CF work has been concerned not with how the process is occuring but just proving the fused stuff is indeed showing up, where there was none and doing this with solid scientific data.
I have also long posited that if CF is real, it will not produce any energy of value to avert an energy crunch. It would be a low order process.
Richard Hull
With none of the normal signature particles and debris from fusion as we are taught, there might be another process going on that is unseen and unappreciated.
Most CF work has been concerned not with how the process is occuring but just proving the fused stuff is indeed showing up, where there was none and doing this with solid scientific data.
I have also long posited that if CF is real, it will not produce any energy of value to avert an energy crunch. It would be a low order process.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
falstaff wrote:
>
> > IIRC they are finding neutron tracks virtually identical to fusion ,
> Nah, thats the problem with CF, there are no MeV neutrons
> measured, but ...
You're right. I misremembered. Charged particle tracks, not neutron tracks.
> >and substances in the post-operation electrolyte virtually identical
> >to DD fusion products - helium, ashes, etc.
> people report He all the time. So where does the He come from in
> the absence of neutrons produced?
No idea. But the constellation of evidence screams fusion. A highly
anomalous fusion process. As experiment trumps theory, theory is wrong.
Ignore CF as a route to net power. If nothing else it should force a reevaluation of fusion theory, and that should open up some new possibilities.
>
> > IIRC they are finding neutron tracks virtually identical to fusion ,
> Nah, thats the problem with CF, there are no MeV neutrons
> measured, but ...
You're right. I misremembered. Charged particle tracks, not neutron tracks.
> >and substances in the post-operation electrolyte virtually identical
> >to DD fusion products - helium, ashes, etc.
> people report He all the time. So where does the He come from in
> the absence of neutrons produced?
No idea. But the constellation of evidence screams fusion. A highly
anomalous fusion process. As experiment trumps theory, theory is wrong.
Ignore CF as a route to net power. If nothing else it should force a reevaluation of fusion theory, and that should open up some new possibilities.
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JohnCuthbert
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Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
OK, call me cynical but He is noted for diffusing exactly where it wants to go -potentially useful for refilling HeNe laser tubes but a pita if you are hoping to prove anything. Also a lot of heavy water contains TDO as well as D2O so I sure hope they did a blank. Putting a couple of high voltage electrodes across a conductor does little to inspier confidence. The real problem here is that I simply don't have the data to know what they are trying to do; that leads me to wonder why not. If someone has an accessible copy of one of their reports I'd really like a look.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
The Chubbs (Talbot and Scott) did most of the Navy work over several years and published a massive report. I think I posted the URL to the report or a synopsis of it before somewhere here. It was satisfying enough for the Navy to continue the effort.
This site always has the latest data and papers and is well managed.
http://lenr-canr.org/
I notice that Ed Storms has a, just released, new book. He is an ex-Los Alamos researcher who has done quite a bid of work on CANR/LENR.
Richard Hull
This site always has the latest data and papers and is well managed.
http://lenr-canr.org/
I notice that Ed Storms has a, just released, new book. He is an ex-Los Alamos researcher who has done quite a bid of work on CANR/LENR.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
> No idea. But the constellation of evidence screams fusion. A highly
> anomalous fusion process.
The results, not always repeatable BTW, I agree scream something, but without neutrons I don't think we get to call it fusion (yet?). At least not if you make your living in nuclear physics. Pons and Fleischmann did and had to catch the bus to France.
> anomalous fusion process.
The results, not always repeatable BTW, I agree scream something, but without neutrons I don't think we get to call it fusion (yet?). At least not if you make your living in nuclear physics. Pons and Fleischmann did and had to catch the bus to France.
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
falstaff wrote:
> > No idea. But the constellation of evidence screams fusion. A highly
> > anomalous fusion process.
> The results, not always repeatable BTW, I agree scream
> something,
Something nuclear, at the very least.
And IIRC, repeatability has improved markedly.
> but without neutrons I don't think we get to call it fusion (yet?).
The results seem persuasive.
Charged particle tracks straight out of the DD fusion handbook.
Electrolyte contaminants straight out of the DD fusion handbook.
And IIRC, virtually every conceivable electrochemical route for the production of the excess heat has been ruled out, via several documents from Richard's LENR site I read 2 years ago.
All the evidence says fusion, except for the neutrons. Given the preponderance of the evidence, I think it is a solid hypothesis to say that an _anomalous_ fusion process _is_ going on and that current fusion theory is lacking.
> At least not if you make your living in nuclear physics. Pons and
> Fleischmann did and had to catch the bus to France.
The hard core types who've kept at it seem to have addressed virtually every objection over the last 20 years; again, per my 2005 reading. The SPAWAR results do seem to be making slow progress against the pariah status P-F managed to create via a beautiful example of political and experimental incompetence.
> > No idea. But the constellation of evidence screams fusion. A highly
> > anomalous fusion process.
> The results, not always repeatable BTW, I agree scream
> something,
Something nuclear, at the very least.
And IIRC, repeatability has improved markedly.
> but without neutrons I don't think we get to call it fusion (yet?).
The results seem persuasive.
Charged particle tracks straight out of the DD fusion handbook.
Electrolyte contaminants straight out of the DD fusion handbook.
And IIRC, virtually every conceivable electrochemical route for the production of the excess heat has been ruled out, via several documents from Richard's LENR site I read 2 years ago.
All the evidence says fusion, except for the neutrons. Given the preponderance of the evidence, I think it is a solid hypothesis to say that an _anomalous_ fusion process _is_ going on and that current fusion theory is lacking.
> At least not if you make your living in nuclear physics. Pons and
> Fleischmann did and had to catch the bus to France.
The hard core types who've kept at it seem to have addressed virtually every objection over the last 20 years; again, per my 2005 reading. The SPAWAR results do seem to be making slow progress against the pariah status P-F managed to create via a beautiful example of political and experimental incompetence.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
Before you blame one of the pre-imment electrochemists on the planet for incompetence I would bear more toward the political side. The University of Utah and its lawyers smelled money, patents and fame and pushed to publish seeking to head off Stephen Jones of Brigham Young in the CF discovery.
The only issue is that electrochemists are not the world's best radiation metrologists and this multi-disciplinary nature of the CF quest has proven a snare to the feet of single CF investigators for years as there has been little serious efforts with multi-disciplinary investigators in team efforts until the last 10 years.
There may still be more suitable, positive recognition for Pons and Fleischmann down the road as discoverers rather than developers or theoreticians, much as Rutherford and Soddy are remembered a developers and theorists over poor old Becquerel who made the intial impact discovery, but was left in the dust by others.
We will see.........
Side note**********************************
As an interesting side note, Stephen Jones at BYU was looking at CF quite aside from P and F and, by "gentleman's agreement", was to colaborate with Pons and Fleischmann in 1989, but U of U pushed a work around on BYU, forcing Pons and Fleischmann to a press conference in march of 1989.
Jones was left safely out of the scathing lime light that U of U had pushed P and F into.
Jones went on to investigate muon catalyized fusion, publishing many papers.
Amazingly, Jones was relieved from his tennured professorship with pay at BYU in 2006 when he took a bold stance based on his own research that the 9/11 twin towers were destroyed by "controlled demolition." He has since formally retired.
Richard Hull
The only issue is that electrochemists are not the world's best radiation metrologists and this multi-disciplinary nature of the CF quest has proven a snare to the feet of single CF investigators for years as there has been little serious efforts with multi-disciplinary investigators in team efforts until the last 10 years.
There may still be more suitable, positive recognition for Pons and Fleischmann down the road as discoverers rather than developers or theoreticians, much as Rutherford and Soddy are remembered a developers and theorists over poor old Becquerel who made the intial impact discovery, but was left in the dust by others.
We will see.........
Side note**********************************
As an interesting side note, Stephen Jones at BYU was looking at CF quite aside from P and F and, by "gentleman's agreement", was to colaborate with Pons and Fleischmann in 1989, but U of U pushed a work around on BYU, forcing Pons and Fleischmann to a press conference in march of 1989.
Jones was left safely out of the scathing lime light that U of U had pushed P and F into.
Jones went on to investigate muon catalyized fusion, publishing many papers.
Amazingly, Jones was relieved from his tennured professorship with pay at BYU in 2006 when he took a bold stance based on his own research that the 9/11 twin towers were destroyed by "controlled demolition." He has since formally retired.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
Researchers continue to attempt to create a fully replicable process based upon the Navy work.
Unfortunately, there are still numerous issues.
Potential chemical processes acting upon the CR39 detectors directly has not been unequivocally ruled out, and Oriani's work relies upon "seeded" cathodes.
Physical Review C, for one, remains unconvinced.
http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowals ... srevc.html
Oliver
Unfortunately, there are still numerous issues.
Potential chemical processes acting upon the CR39 detectors directly has not been unequivocally ruled out, and Oriani's work relies upon "seeded" cathodes.
Physical Review C, for one, remains unconvinced.
http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowals ... srevc.html
Oliver
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
Duane Oldsen wrote:
> All the evidence says fusion, except for the neutrons. Given the preponderance of the evidence, I think it is a solid hypothesis to say that an _anomalous_ fusion process _is_ going on and that current fusion theory is lacking.
That implies the neutrons are somehow not quite that important, akin to saying oxygen looks exactly like water (H20) except for the hydrogen. I also hope more research is done on to work out whats really going on with LENR, but it does a the field a disservice to label it something without the evidence. So I say follow the lead of the engaged researchers: call it what they do have evidence for, LENR, period.
> All the evidence says fusion, except for the neutrons. Given the preponderance of the evidence, I think it is a solid hypothesis to say that an _anomalous_ fusion process _is_ going on and that current fusion theory is lacking.
That implies the neutrons are somehow not quite that important, akin to saying oxygen looks exactly like water (H20) except for the hydrogen. I also hope more research is done on to work out whats really going on with LENR, but it does a the field a disservice to label it something without the evidence. So I say follow the lead of the engaged researchers: call it what they do have evidence for, LENR, period.
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
Fascinating Side note. Thanks.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
The LENR/CANR monicker was coined to get out from under the preconditioned negatives and hopelessly knee jerk reactions associated with the term Cold Fusion. The APS slowly allowed poster presentations ONLY of CF/LENR/CANR at meetings in the mid 90's. Today papers are freely presented with titles such as Palladium Lattice, Electrochemical Reactions, etc.
It shows that if one gets away from terms already banished from the minds of the intelligencia, but speaks of the same thing, such lofty titled works are acceptable to listen to in other mixed intelligencia circles. It also gives an "out" for those possibly having a light go on in their heads and wishing to investigate themselves...........But never will they dabble in COLD FUSION work, of course.
They forget the words of the bard........A rose by any other name would smell but as sweet.........
Still, if it moves the work out of the shadows under any number of bright new names, it will be beneficial.
If it comes to pass that low Z stuff gets turned into higher Z stuff outside of the classic plasma regime, cold fusion might actually become accepatable again. However, I'll bet some hack who makes a 100% replicable process out of it will name it other than what it really is or create a clever, easy to remember acronym from an 8 word description of the process.
Still, we may have functioning NimBin, (nuclear interstetial molecular bond infusion network), glove warmers at K-Marts by 2050. Once depleted you can take them back to K-mart and get 50% off a replacement as they are recycled for palladium and milked for the generated tritium or helium.
Richard Hull
It shows that if one gets away from terms already banished from the minds of the intelligencia, but speaks of the same thing, such lofty titled works are acceptable to listen to in other mixed intelligencia circles. It also gives an "out" for those possibly having a light go on in their heads and wishing to investigate themselves...........But never will they dabble in COLD FUSION work, of course.
They forget the words of the bard........A rose by any other name would smell but as sweet.........
Still, if it moves the work out of the shadows under any number of bright new names, it will be beneficial.
If it comes to pass that low Z stuff gets turned into higher Z stuff outside of the classic plasma regime, cold fusion might actually become accepatable again. However, I'll bet some hack who makes a 100% replicable process out of it will name it other than what it really is or create a clever, easy to remember acronym from an 8 word description of the process.
Still, we may have functioning NimBin, (nuclear interstetial molecular bond infusion network), glove warmers at K-Marts by 2050. Once depleted you can take them back to K-mart and get 50% off a replacement as they are recycled for palladium and milked for the generated tritium or helium.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Navy Cold Fusion research still a work in progress
CF has the best chance of producing grid power as any fusion device yet constructed.
Advances on the path of discovery will open new techniques of exchanging mass for energy,(or even energy for energy).
The true sadness is fusion will be moth-balled for many years afterward. Some ingenius fellow will see something the others didn't. Constructing a wholesale fusion energy production device.
Technical people will pause for just a moment and think "Huh,.. look there, someone finally did it".
Will it fit the world into which it is born? Maybe.
Advances on the path of discovery will open new techniques of exchanging mass for energy,(or even energy for energy).
The true sadness is fusion will be moth-balled for many years afterward. Some ingenius fellow will see something the others didn't. Constructing a wholesale fusion energy production device.
Technical people will pause for just a moment and think "Huh,.. look there, someone finally did it".
Will it fit the world into which it is born? Maybe.