Just found this via KeelyNet. Take special note of the contest.
http://www.mqnf.com/
Yet another crackpot site.
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
Hi Guys:
This idea of neutrons as special cases in quantum mechanics of protons is at least 40 years old. Enrico Fermi proposed it ,Robert Oppenheimer and Neils Bohr worked on it.
The guys figures look right. Synthetic neutrons would indeed
fuse readily. (no repulsion if 4 did get together and decay you would get helium) It's not that nutty an idea. I think Richard Hull should wade in and give it a look..
Besides the guy hardly fits the usual crackpot mold...they usually flub the most basic facts
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
This idea of neutrons as special cases in quantum mechanics of protons is at least 40 years old. Enrico Fermi proposed it ,Robert Oppenheimer and Neils Bohr worked on it.
The guys figures look right. Synthetic neutrons would indeed
fuse readily. (no repulsion if 4 did get together and decay you would get helium) It's not that nutty an idea. I think Richard Hull should wade in and give it a look..
Besides the guy hardly fits the usual crackpot mold...they usually flub the most basic facts
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
-
Richard Hull
- Moderator
- Posts: 15037
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
I have waded into this guys stuff before. Larry noted that the proton-electron or special hydrogen atom neutron idea is quite old. While I hold with it in principle, this guy has special issues. Press releases??? Awards in his own name??? Not real confidence inspiring.
It is one thing to question and wonder as I do, a bit outside of the mainstream, but quite another to unviel a theory with no physical proof, make up an award in your own name and issue press releases in anticipation of instant recognition. I wish him well, but I have my doubts due to a number of his assumptions in the paper.
Richard Hull
It is one thing to question and wonder as I do, a bit outside of the mainstream, but quite another to unviel a theory with no physical proof, make up an award in your own name and issue press releases in anticipation of instant recognition. I wish him well, but I have my doubts due to a number of his assumptions in the paper.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
Hi Richard:
An itch in the back of my neck would not go away.
I had to really dig .... really deep.
A.R Edmonds to be precise.
"Angular Momentum in Quantum Mechanics"
The "paper" only had the results that were assumed by the folks
who actually derived them from the tensor mechanical basis.
John Von Neumann and Leo Szilard blew it out of the water with this little gem. In order to synthesize a neutron you would have
to measure the momentums to be able to calculate the bonding potential. (tunneling potential well)
However and I quote...
exerpted John Von Neumann's
"Mathematical Foundations of Quantum Mechanics"
p 400 bottom of page.
" L. Szilard has shown one cannot get this "knowledge" without a compensating entropy increase x ln 2. In general xln2 is the " thermodynamic value" of the knowledge....
I just found the seminal paper this guy has cribbed.
I now see what you mean.
There is no way in hell that he could build an apparatus
based on not one but four infinities that can reduce entropy by assembling particles (neutrons) .
>>>>>>> That is a perpetual motion machine. <<<<<<<<<<<<<
In the form he presented it there was no way to determine that without a ton of reference ... after all he was cribbing from the best.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
An itch in the back of my neck would not go away.
I had to really dig .... really deep.
A.R Edmonds to be precise.
"Angular Momentum in Quantum Mechanics"
The "paper" only had the results that were assumed by the folks
who actually derived them from the tensor mechanical basis.
John Von Neumann and Leo Szilard blew it out of the water with this little gem. In order to synthesize a neutron you would have
to measure the momentums to be able to calculate the bonding potential. (tunneling potential well)
However and I quote...
exerpted John Von Neumann's
"Mathematical Foundations of Quantum Mechanics"
p 400 bottom of page.
" L. Szilard has shown one cannot get this "knowledge" without a compensating entropy increase x ln 2. In general xln2 is the " thermodynamic value" of the knowledge....
I just found the seminal paper this guy has cribbed.
I now see what you mean.
There is no way in hell that he could build an apparatus
based on not one but four infinities that can reduce entropy by assembling particles (neutrons) .
>>>>>>> That is a perpetual motion machine. <<<<<<<<<<<<<
In the form he presented it there was no way to determine that without a ton of reference ... after all he was cribbing from the best.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
-
Richard Hull
- Moderator
- Posts: 15037
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
Neutrons are forged in the cores of stars by some process we are not privy to. The process itself may be rather casual, (who knows), provided certain key conditions are met. Cores of stars obviously meet the criteria.
Richard Hull
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
Thanks gentlemen... nice analysis... and I think correct. The true researcher is interested in truth, not notoriety. That this guy is more interested in awarding himself something, tells it all.
Smoke, mirrors and virtual neutrons. All we need is quantum stump water!
Dave Cooper
Smoke, mirrors and virtual neutrons. All we need is quantum stump water!
Dave Cooper
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
Hello Matt:
Ok ...Cribbed is a harsh word.
Your work closely follows the work of Born, Oppenheimer and Szillard. As an alternative guy ,I wish you well for your struggle is up hill and into the wind. The public authorities will treat you without kid gloves as is the case when something new is proposed. You guys might have something, but until you deal with the problems of the Old Great Guys you will get little notice . If you have come to the work honestly my apologies. I realise it is possible to come to the stuff fresh with out prior knowledge
of the previous work. I spent four years in Physical Chemistry & Nuclear Physics.
It is all Quantum Physics. The thermodynamic quantum aspects are little known but are major contributions to how atoms bond,nuclear bonding ect...so I'm sorry if I jumped a little too hard.
But Matt we do this forum thing to air and defend.
I'm not even safe at the forum...just check the posts.
Congratulations...you have sucessfully defended your work....at least with us.
99% of the time we never hear anything back.
Are we perfect ?
NOPE!
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Ok ...Cribbed is a harsh word.
Your work closely follows the work of Born, Oppenheimer and Szillard. As an alternative guy ,I wish you well for your struggle is up hill and into the wind. The public authorities will treat you without kid gloves as is the case when something new is proposed. You guys might have something, but until you deal with the problems of the Old Great Guys you will get little notice . If you have come to the work honestly my apologies. I realise it is possible to come to the stuff fresh with out prior knowledge
of the previous work. I spent four years in Physical Chemistry & Nuclear Physics.
It is all Quantum Physics. The thermodynamic quantum aspects are little known but are major contributions to how atoms bond,nuclear bonding ect...so I'm sorry if I jumped a little too hard.
But Matt we do this forum thing to air and defend.
I'm not even safe at the forum...just check the posts.
Congratulations...you have sucessfully defended your work....at least with us.
99% of the time we never hear anything back.
Are we perfect ?
NOPE!
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
Thanks. Uphill, in the wind, and then up that 400 foot waterfall! 2.5 years worth has made that abundandly clear.
DOE is looking at this, and have their reservations, but have not entirely dismissed it.
I like to think that the lack of the prior knowledge actually helped us to arrive at this point in our work -- in reading the threads of this forum I find myself intrigued and wanting to try new things, not sure which to try first, so fortunately I recognize the need to reel myself back and focus on my own project obligations.
So much fun stuff!
On 1 point, however, I wish to respectfully disagree with you -- I think it is not all Quantum Physics.
If you step away from the perspective of the proton, and instead approach the matter through the perspective of the electron, it becomes classical physics.
As we look up to the stars they are relativistic, as we look at atoms they are quantum statistical, but if we stand on an electron it all becomes relativistic.
I'll cross post the following on Richard Hull's recent neutron posting, since I believe he is absolutely correct on the composition of the neutron.
According to the Bohr Correspondence Principle, when the energy differences between quantum energy states vanish, classical and quantum physics agree.
As per W.T. Gray's work, in a Hydrogen atom the energy of a quantum state is given by En= (-13.6ev)/(n^2), where n is the quantum level, so the orbital electron sits in a -13.6 eV energy well when the quantum state is n=1, and a (-13.6)/(10^4)^2 = 1.36x10^-7 eV energy well when the quantum state n=10,000.
It only takes 13.6 eV energy to ionize hydrogen and at n=10,000 it behaves like simple classical physics because the quantum energy wells are too small to be significant -- because 1.36x10^-7 eV is far below the energy of a photon around 1eV. So if you cannot measure it with a photon, then its behavior is no longer quantum, it is classical ((i.e. continuous with an F = Ke (q1q2/r^2) relation)).
The neutron with a +0.78233 MeV energy is therefore permitted because at that energy the orbital electron forms a classical Bohr orbital with a very small radius, just like giving the moon more kinetic energy so it moves faster and its orbital radius shortens closer to earth so the gravitational force F=(m1m2/r^2) can hold it -- higher energy means smaller orbits so the charge of the proton can hold the electron.
As orbital speed increases, relativistic effects come into place because 0.78233 MeV increases electron mass by (me + 0.78233 MeV)/(me=0.511MeV) = 2.531. The orbital energy of 0.78233 MeV has 3 dimensional energies of 0.78233MeV/3 = 0.260777 MeV, so the orbital radius moves in by 0.26077MeV/13.6eV = 19,175, or (0.529x10^-10m)/(19,175) = 2.76 fm, or the Bohr radius of a neutron electron which is then contracted by 2.531 relativistic effect to 1.091 fm. Since the proton's radius is 1.0355 fm, that is why neutrons have a 0.78233 MeV energy -- because one cannot contract the space below the proton's radius, so observers see a 1.091 fm neutron radius and the electron sees itself at a 2.76 fm radius. It's all about perspective. This conforms to the Bohr Correspondence Principle because the proton has a mass of 938 MeV.
From the perspective of the electron, the proton appears to orbit around the electron, so it looks like an orbital particle (938x10^6)/(10^8/13.6) = 12 times greater than the requirement of the Bohr Correspondence Principle, so its treatment is classical.
Phew! I need to go eat breakfast!
DOE is looking at this, and have their reservations, but have not entirely dismissed it.
I like to think that the lack of the prior knowledge actually helped us to arrive at this point in our work -- in reading the threads of this forum I find myself intrigued and wanting to try new things, not sure which to try first, so fortunately I recognize the need to reel myself back and focus on my own project obligations.
So much fun stuff!
On 1 point, however, I wish to respectfully disagree with you -- I think it is not all Quantum Physics.
If you step away from the perspective of the proton, and instead approach the matter through the perspective of the electron, it becomes classical physics.
As we look up to the stars they are relativistic, as we look at atoms they are quantum statistical, but if we stand on an electron it all becomes relativistic.
I'll cross post the following on Richard Hull's recent neutron posting, since I believe he is absolutely correct on the composition of the neutron.
According to the Bohr Correspondence Principle, when the energy differences between quantum energy states vanish, classical and quantum physics agree.
As per W.T. Gray's work, in a Hydrogen atom the energy of a quantum state is given by En= (-13.6ev)/(n^2), where n is the quantum level, so the orbital electron sits in a -13.6 eV energy well when the quantum state is n=1, and a (-13.6)/(10^4)^2 = 1.36x10^-7 eV energy well when the quantum state n=10,000.
It only takes 13.6 eV energy to ionize hydrogen and at n=10,000 it behaves like simple classical physics because the quantum energy wells are too small to be significant -- because 1.36x10^-7 eV is far below the energy of a photon around 1eV. So if you cannot measure it with a photon, then its behavior is no longer quantum, it is classical ((i.e. continuous with an F = Ke (q1q2/r^2) relation)).
The neutron with a +0.78233 MeV energy is therefore permitted because at that energy the orbital electron forms a classical Bohr orbital with a very small radius, just like giving the moon more kinetic energy so it moves faster and its orbital radius shortens closer to earth so the gravitational force F=(m1m2/r^2) can hold it -- higher energy means smaller orbits so the charge of the proton can hold the electron.
As orbital speed increases, relativistic effects come into place because 0.78233 MeV increases electron mass by (me + 0.78233 MeV)/(me=0.511MeV) = 2.531. The orbital energy of 0.78233 MeV has 3 dimensional energies of 0.78233MeV/3 = 0.260777 MeV, so the orbital radius moves in by 0.26077MeV/13.6eV = 19,175, or (0.529x10^-10m)/(19,175) = 2.76 fm, or the Bohr radius of a neutron electron which is then contracted by 2.531 relativistic effect to 1.091 fm. Since the proton's radius is 1.0355 fm, that is why neutrons have a 0.78233 MeV energy -- because one cannot contract the space below the proton's radius, so observers see a 1.091 fm neutron radius and the electron sees itself at a 2.76 fm radius. It's all about perspective. This conforms to the Bohr Correspondence Principle because the proton has a mass of 938 MeV.
From the perspective of the electron, the proton appears to orbit around the electron, so it looks like an orbital particle (938x10^6)/(10^8/13.6) = 12 times greater than the requirement of the Bohr Correspondence Principle, so its treatment is classical.
Phew! I need to go eat breakfast!
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
Hi Matt:
It takes time to get your point across.
I was raised old school... Quantum was God!
Good to see we didn't scare you off.
However you must realise why folks believe the quantum view so
vehemitly ...it has provided testable answers for at least 50 years. However we still don't know crap about it ...like how it really works. Leo Szilard could be wrong for sure! Oppenheimer and Born too! It only took a few hours at my University to get those replies... it will take the DOE crowd a Month to Six months to probably come to the same conclusions....most old farts that did quantum day in and day out are dead. I will let you know if they crib my post <:^)
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
It takes time to get your point across.
I was raised old school... Quantum was God!
Good to see we didn't scare you off.
However you must realise why folks believe the quantum view so
vehemitly ...it has provided testable answers for at least 50 years. However we still don't know crap about it ...like how it really works. Leo Szilard could be wrong for sure! Oppenheimer and Born too! It only took a few hours at my University to get those replies... it will take the DOE crowd a Month to Six months to probably come to the same conclusions....most old farts that did quantum day in and day out are dead. I will let you know if they crib my post <:^)
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
-
TheStormRunner
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:51 am
- Real name:
Re: Yet another crackpot site.
The title of "crackpot" mostly had to do with where I got the link (KeelyNet). One of the reasons for posting it here was to get a reaction from poeple who are better at subatomic physics than I am. And if there are any people who may be capable of building contraptions to verify the experiments, those people are probably in these forums.
I'm glad that I brought a discussion to life. I'm just not as diplomatic as some, and for that I must appologise.
I'm glad that I brought a discussion to life. I'm just not as diplomatic as some, and for that I must appologise.
not JUST another crackpot site.
Hi SHale -
Water under the bridge, but thanks for the acknowledgement.
It's nice to know this whole body of people exists who are committed to what I view as the most pivotal role in resolving the world's energy needs.
Which reminds me, regarding our oil reserves (Venezuela, Omar, Quedar, Kuwait, Iran, Irag), production at all of them have been slowed, our gas prices increased, and the rate of production versus the estimated reserve places our remaining available oil at 21 years -- at all the sites. Coincidence? Why 21 years?
==================
Larry -
Like you say, Quantum may be God... I dunno.
Possibly exists through Fractal Reality?
e^x = 1(a point)...
+ 1/x (another point giving us a line)...
+ x^2/2! (a 3rd point making a surface)...
+ x^3/3! (a 4th pt. making a volume)...
+ x^4/4! -- motion, and so on.... viewed in its totality, what does it all really mean? I wonder.
Can someone answer me this? I was impressed by it, though it seems no-one else is... so I'm wondering what I'm missing. W.T. Gray was able to correctly calculate (within between 0.016-0.04% of measured values, excluding sig. figs.), the proton 2.7928 magneton, the neutron structure and its -1.9135 magneton, ½-spin, and neutrino, deuterium's, tritium's, helium-3's and helium-4's binding energies, magnetons and spins, and the tau, kaon, pion and muon mass energies. Notwithstanding the assertion of some assumptions... it does indeed work out.
Come on... isn't that 'kinda' neat???
Water under the bridge, but thanks for the acknowledgement.
It's nice to know this whole body of people exists who are committed to what I view as the most pivotal role in resolving the world's energy needs.
Which reminds me, regarding our oil reserves (Venezuela, Omar, Quedar, Kuwait, Iran, Irag), production at all of them have been slowed, our gas prices increased, and the rate of production versus the estimated reserve places our remaining available oil at 21 years -- at all the sites. Coincidence? Why 21 years?
==================
Larry -
Like you say, Quantum may be God... I dunno.
Possibly exists through Fractal Reality?
e^x = 1(a point)...
+ 1/x (another point giving us a line)...
+ x^2/2! (a 3rd point making a surface)...
+ x^3/3! (a 4th pt. making a volume)...
+ x^4/4! -- motion, and so on.... viewed in its totality, what does it all really mean? I wonder.
Can someone answer me this? I was impressed by it, though it seems no-one else is... so I'm wondering what I'm missing. W.T. Gray was able to correctly calculate (within between 0.016-0.04% of measured values, excluding sig. figs.), the proton 2.7928 magneton, the neutron structure and its -1.9135 magneton, ½-spin, and neutrino, deuterium's, tritium's, helium-3's and helium-4's binding energies, magnetons and spins, and the tau, kaon, pion and muon mass energies. Notwithstanding the assertion of some assumptions... it does indeed work out.
Come on... isn't that 'kinda' neat???
Re: not JUST another crackpot site.
Hi Matt:
That is why this forum is so valuable.
I have never until last week read any of the WT Grey work.
And I'll bet you never knew all those guys did work on this in 1937,1946 and in 1968. Heck I'll bet if I dig enough that Chadwick and Rutherford might have neutron writings.
That is problematic in the resources of scientific work to read no less digest and use. No one has access to all of it. I'm only fair at the quantum work due to the fact it's scope was limited to atoms bonding in most of my work. The work in the nuclear particle stuff was rammed into 2 semesters. You drink from the spicket or die trying. I later took a course in quantum electronics
over one summer made a B...So some of it musta stuck enough to be the only undergrad quantum theorist in grad lab. But even so I know the beast too well,it is still just a gauge theory with little why but enough how to design new pharmacy medicines and electronic devices. I learned quantum thermodynamics on the job....when you put dna strands together they will vibrate at certain rates due to specific energy levels/temperatures. It determines how a plasmid unfolds into a bacteria's dna template. on and on. So quantum has a load of uses.
However You might be right the neutron problem is right at the border line between classical and quantum.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
That is why this forum is so valuable.
I have never until last week read any of the WT Grey work.
And I'll bet you never knew all those guys did work on this in 1937,1946 and in 1968. Heck I'll bet if I dig enough that Chadwick and Rutherford might have neutron writings.
That is problematic in the resources of scientific work to read no less digest and use. No one has access to all of it. I'm only fair at the quantum work due to the fact it's scope was limited to atoms bonding in most of my work. The work in the nuclear particle stuff was rammed into 2 semesters. You drink from the spicket or die trying. I later took a course in quantum electronics
over one summer made a B...So some of it musta stuck enough to be the only undergrad quantum theorist in grad lab. But even so I know the beast too well,it is still just a gauge theory with little why but enough how to design new pharmacy medicines and electronic devices. I learned quantum thermodynamics on the job....when you put dna strands together they will vibrate at certain rates due to specific energy levels/temperatures. It determines how a plasmid unfolds into a bacteria's dna template. on and on. So quantum has a load of uses.
However You might be right the neutron problem is right at the border line between classical and quantum.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: not JUST another crackpot site.
The Taylor expansion of the exponential function?
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TaylorsTheorem.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor's_theorem
http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/TaylorSeries.html
It's just a consequence of Taylor's theorem, which applies to any differentiable function. Polynomial series approximations of functions are incredibly useful and as a result pretty common, so most people familiar with them see them as being fairly ordinary. The exponential function just happens to have an especially nice series.
--Ryan
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TaylorsTheorem.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor's_theorem
http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/TaylorSeries.html
It's just a consequence of Taylor's theorem, which applies to any differentiable function. Polynomial series approximations of functions are incredibly useful and as a result pretty common, so most people familiar with them see them as being fairly ordinary. The exponential function just happens to have an especially nice series.
--Ryan