60 minutes had a segment on the nevada burial site last night. It was interesting and informative. But the battle is heating up. The nevada legislature and most of the city governments have already enacted laws prohibiting transport through key routes into the site.
So it may come down to States rights versus Gov't policy. We will see.
The super positive aspect is that all of our lethal rad waste at hundreds of sites in America will be in one basket. Lots easier to guard against proliferation and terrorist attack. Also, it would force a lot of the material to be re-casked and sealed in much more suitable containers for both transport across the heartland and long term storage.
I am for the large repository and we should build an army base and air strip encircling it with about three fenced layers of security. This would allow the nuclear industry to thrive again without immediate waste storage issues.
The waste from a nuclear fission plant is very, very nasty, but is not volumetrically large. We never did get into recycling the spent fuel as it looked like another super nasty issue. We need to look at that again with a modern technological eye as we are preparing to bury billions of dollars worth of very usable fuel in all those spent assemblies.
The solution may be in redesigning the assemblies with an eye towards reclaimation using robot operated reclamation sites for the fuel. Most of the trouble now comes from all the nastey soluables needed to treat the spent fuel which is a huge nastey radioactive mess and massive in volume. Perhaps we could design premiere power plants using virgin fuel and then a series of low grade power plants designed to suck the last watt out of old assemblies. Then bury the residue.
The waste from three premiere plants would feed a like energy output low grade plant. From here the massive Sr90, Co60 and other isotopes super loaded into the ultra spent fuel assemblies at the end of the process might be used in RTGs (Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators) like the SNAP series power units. Waste not want not.
This is all stuff we could be doing now rather than conquering other countries to keep the oil flowing. The same money would be spent on a future that uses an energy source that is long term, well understood and able to handle growth rather than to merely extend petroleum's enivitable doom as an energy source. Nor should to attempt to put band-aids on bullet wounds by assuming solar, wind or geothermal will save the day, long term.
Richard Hull
Burying the Rad stuff
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Richard Hull
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Burying the Rad stuff
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Burying the Rad stuff
Hi Richard:
We had a beautiful solution to the whole recycle problem,
the molten salt reactor. Can't melt down. Runs at efficient high temperatures about a thousand times more efficient that water boilers because it runs at 2500-3600 degrees. A molten flouride salt is held in a reactor vessel with a reflector to create criticallity.
But outside that reactor it is subcritical. That reactor removes fission products as they are created by a stream of molten bismuth metal. The recycle was built into the reactor system.
The problem with present reactors is you tend to end up with a ton or two of fission products after each refueling. The MSR system removes the fission leftovers daily so less stringent measures are needed. If we are going to have to bite the fission bullet why not use the best ?
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
We had a beautiful solution to the whole recycle problem,
the molten salt reactor. Can't melt down. Runs at efficient high temperatures about a thousand times more efficient that water boilers because it runs at 2500-3600 degrees. A molten flouride salt is held in a reactor vessel with a reflector to create criticallity.
But outside that reactor it is subcritical. That reactor removes fission products as they are created by a stream of molten bismuth metal. The recycle was built into the reactor system.
The problem with present reactors is you tend to end up with a ton or two of fission products after each refueling. The MSR system removes the fission leftovers daily so less stringent measures are needed. If we are going to have to bite the fission bullet why not use the best ?
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: Burying the Rad stuff
Can I get an "amen" here for the reverend Hull?
I've been wondering why all of that hot stuff hasn't been put into use for years. Thermoelectrics have come along way since the 50's and 60's. As well as telerobotics (so we can handle the stuff). If we are gonna use fission, lets get as much energy out of the fuel AND wastes as we can.
Q
I've been wondering why all of that hot stuff hasn't been put into use for years. Thermoelectrics have come along way since the 50's and 60's. As well as telerobotics (so we can handle the stuff). If we are gonna use fission, lets get as much energy out of the fuel AND wastes as we can.
Q
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Richard Hull
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Re: Burying the Rad stuff
Back during the good old days of Atoms For Peace, when Ike was in the Whitehouse, the government had vast plans for all nuclear waste. One that sounded the best was re-cycling plants for the spent fuel assemblies. These involved a dual mission. First to actually reclaim all unspent U-235 and reprocess to new and usable fuel assemblies. Second, the better and hottest rad waste such as Cesium, Strotium, and some gases were to be used in RTGs and other nuclear applications. The problem was that even with all this recovery, a lot of really nasty chemicals used to process the original material would now be radioactive and not effectively recyclable, itself. (reacted acids, alkalis, etc.) This, of course created, a new waste problem while attempting to solve the first one.
Add to this very real issue, the ever dwindling intelligence of the american public coupled with media hype, and it looked like no one was going to really persue this path. So, in all new nuke plants, holding tanks were spec'd so that they could store hot spent fuel assemblies in such profusion that it would give the government time to cogitate on a solution to the problem.
As the public became ever more paranoid and the entire nuclear power program wound down in the 70's, the hot button issue of waste disposal wasn't touched in a significant way. After enough avoidance, the subject is now critical and a common reposititory is considered to be the current answer.
While the US built a number of RTGs for space and remote apps, we never got onto the RTG bandwagon the way the Russkies did. Unfortunately, with modern terrorism a real threat, the profusion of Russian RTG's that were just abandoned and the multi-megacuries of Sr and Cs scattered over the old soviet union in seed storage units and germinators, a real problem shows itself.
The US is not likely to load up thousands of small RTGs for power use and scatter them around the country with terrosists on the loose especially when the whole issue of the nuclear power industry with its secure locations and better electrical efficiencies are in doubt.
Sorry, but the RTG makes sense only in the 1kilowatt category for space energy needs, not earthly needs.
It is hard for us to grasp the concept of a mega-curie but they abound in spent fuel assemblies.
If an RTG like application is attempted for real power purposes, it would be best to create the power source as the actual repository casing and wire into it there where round the clock guards would certainly be stationed.
Richard Hull
Add to this very real issue, the ever dwindling intelligence of the american public coupled with media hype, and it looked like no one was going to really persue this path. So, in all new nuke plants, holding tanks were spec'd so that they could store hot spent fuel assemblies in such profusion that it would give the government time to cogitate on a solution to the problem.
As the public became ever more paranoid and the entire nuclear power program wound down in the 70's, the hot button issue of waste disposal wasn't touched in a significant way. After enough avoidance, the subject is now critical and a common reposititory is considered to be the current answer.
While the US built a number of RTGs for space and remote apps, we never got onto the RTG bandwagon the way the Russkies did. Unfortunately, with modern terrorism a real threat, the profusion of Russian RTG's that were just abandoned and the multi-megacuries of Sr and Cs scattered over the old soviet union in seed storage units and germinators, a real problem shows itself.
The US is not likely to load up thousands of small RTGs for power use and scatter them around the country with terrosists on the loose especially when the whole issue of the nuclear power industry with its secure locations and better electrical efficiencies are in doubt.
Sorry, but the RTG makes sense only in the 1kilowatt category for space energy needs, not earthly needs.
It is hard for us to grasp the concept of a mega-curie but they abound in spent fuel assemblies.
If an RTG like application is attempted for real power purposes, it would be best to create the power source as the actual repository casing and wire into it there where round the clock guards would certainly be stationed.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
-
Frank Sanns
- Site Admin
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- Real name: Frank Sanns
Re: Burying the Rad stuff
The repository is not a great solution in itself. At a presentation by Bettis, the contractor that is involved in desiging and managing the proposed site, they showed many details of how the site will run.
The matieral for containment and protection from ground water have only been in use for 30 years. They are extrapolating out to 10,000 years and say that all will be good. Predicting how something will perform that far out with high radiation and moistures is dangerous in itself.
The site will be permanently sealed once completed. There will be no way to inspect the state of what is inside. If a problem brews, nobody will know until something really big happens.
Lastly, what if there is a terrorist attack on the site. One nuke targeted on that particular site would release radiation that is unimaginable by todays standards. It would dwarf the radiation released by global thermonuclear war. Look what radiation from one reactor at Chernobyl did. The repository would have 100,000 or more times that. America would be gone and so would its inhabitants.
Frank
The matieral for containment and protection from ground water have only been in use for 30 years. They are extrapolating out to 10,000 years and say that all will be good. Predicting how something will perform that far out with high radiation and moistures is dangerous in itself.
The site will be permanently sealed once completed. There will be no way to inspect the state of what is inside. If a problem brews, nobody will know until something really big happens.
Lastly, what if there is a terrorist attack on the site. One nuke targeted on that particular site would release radiation that is unimaginable by todays standards. It would dwarf the radiation released by global thermonuclear war. Look what radiation from one reactor at Chernobyl did. The repository would have 100,000 or more times that. America would be gone and so would its inhabitants.
Frank
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
Re: Burying the Rad stuff
Ah, yes....
Both you and Richard make very good points. This is exactly why fission needs to be replaced. By what? Who knows, but fusion hopefuly.
Q
Both you and Richard make very good points. This is exactly why fission needs to be replaced. By what? Who knows, but fusion hopefuly.
Q
Re: Burying the Rad stuff
Let me throw in a little more perspecitve on the "spent" fuel rods issue.
So-called spent fuel rods have about 97% of their original fissionable energy remaining. Why would anyone in his right mind, throw away 97% of the fuel charge for gigawatt size reactors? The dollar value of the energy is something like 1-2M dollars per day of operation. Since the 1GW plants refuel every other year.. (think thats the interval)...the recoverable fuel energy is worth about $0.75B for every fuel load. Now this is serious money.
It gets better..... When the fuel rods are reprocessed, most of the radioactive nasties have relatively short half lives. There IS a small amount of the 500 million yr half life stuff... but a tiny percentage of the total mass.
Separating these contaminants into the appropriate piles leaves a substantial fraction that will be harmless as dirt in few yrs and some that will still be dangerous when the planet has aged a Billion yrs... but that only a few lbs.. at most.
The principal reason Nuclear power has become nearly un-economical is that the GOVT - Uncle Sam - has capitulated to pressure from the scientific "gurus of radiation hazard" like Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden and similarly educated folks. Since everybody would rather be scared than enlightened, and since
"scare" sells well on the newstand... Uncle blinked and we have NO onshore reprocessing facilities after more than 35 yrs of nuclear plant operation!! This is negligence that borders on criminal. It is further a renege on an understanding that all the power industry had when they started down the nuclear road.
Had we carried through boldly, we would be unconcerned what lunatic is in control of the Middle Eastern oil, as we would not really have had to buy much, if any. Any liberating that we would have contemplated for over there, might have had a more noble purpose than this present debacle.
But ignorance is truly bliss... And many are happy...
Dave Cooper (climbing down from soapbox)
So-called spent fuel rods have about 97% of their original fissionable energy remaining. Why would anyone in his right mind, throw away 97% of the fuel charge for gigawatt size reactors? The dollar value of the energy is something like 1-2M dollars per day of operation. Since the 1GW plants refuel every other year.. (think thats the interval)...the recoverable fuel energy is worth about $0.75B for every fuel load. Now this is serious money.
It gets better..... When the fuel rods are reprocessed, most of the radioactive nasties have relatively short half lives. There IS a small amount of the 500 million yr half life stuff... but a tiny percentage of the total mass.
Separating these contaminants into the appropriate piles leaves a substantial fraction that will be harmless as dirt in few yrs and some that will still be dangerous when the planet has aged a Billion yrs... but that only a few lbs.. at most.
The principal reason Nuclear power has become nearly un-economical is that the GOVT - Uncle Sam - has capitulated to pressure from the scientific "gurus of radiation hazard" like Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden and similarly educated folks. Since everybody would rather be scared than enlightened, and since
"scare" sells well on the newstand... Uncle blinked and we have NO onshore reprocessing facilities after more than 35 yrs of nuclear plant operation!! This is negligence that borders on criminal. It is further a renege on an understanding that all the power industry had when they started down the nuclear road.
Had we carried through boldly, we would be unconcerned what lunatic is in control of the Middle Eastern oil, as we would not really have had to buy much, if any. Any liberating that we would have contemplated for over there, might have had a more noble purpose than this present debacle.
But ignorance is truly bliss... And many are happy...
Dave Cooper (climbing down from soapbox)
-
guest
Re: Burying the Rad stuff
We all know why we don’t have clean cheep nuke plants, its economics.
Oil and cars make the world go round economically speaking.
The people in power want to retire now, not start a new type of nuke based economics.
Unfortunately this is why the fusor is not a government funded research project.
It might work.
Jim T
Oil and cars make the world go round economically speaking.
The people in power want to retire now, not start a new type of nuke based economics.
Unfortunately this is why the fusor is not a government funded research project.
It might work.
Jim T
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Richard Hull
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Re: Burying the Rad stuff
Dave pretty much put the added touches to the fuel rod issues.
Yes most of the non-fuel stuff left in the rods is rather short lived. Some of the older rods languishing in pools now are pretty much through the worst of the cycle on these hotties. Still, there are the long ones that would certainly be at much smaller volume, but the reprocessing plant would also have to dump thousands of gallons of spent and now radioactive acids and alkalis used to re-digest the fuel rods. Here in, lay the rub. A new plant would be needed to cleanup the cleanup waste. A plant to support a plant. Even if the digesting chemicals were not hot, even those would pose a dumping hazzard. It is these few sticking points that have seen any attempt to reprocess the valuable spent fuel die on the vine.
Rather than rolling up our sleeves and getting to work on these issues like ITS GONNA HAPPEN, we are milling around and wringing our hands as activists scream, the panty-waists sob in the background, and the politicos scurry into the shadows to wait and watch so that they can come out and support the last man standing.
Like I say.............Let the lights go dark..........Let the 1- 2 hours per evening of rationed electricity start killing the super bowl parties...................Rather than pound sand, the indignant will OK most anything to get the lights back on. Unfortunately, that is not the intelligent thing to do, but it puts a certain point on the urgency of the matter, don't it?.
Richard Hull
Yes most of the non-fuel stuff left in the rods is rather short lived. Some of the older rods languishing in pools now are pretty much through the worst of the cycle on these hotties. Still, there are the long ones that would certainly be at much smaller volume, but the reprocessing plant would also have to dump thousands of gallons of spent and now radioactive acids and alkalis used to re-digest the fuel rods. Here in, lay the rub. A new plant would be needed to cleanup the cleanup waste. A plant to support a plant. Even if the digesting chemicals were not hot, even those would pose a dumping hazzard. It is these few sticking points that have seen any attempt to reprocess the valuable spent fuel die on the vine.
Rather than rolling up our sleeves and getting to work on these issues like ITS GONNA HAPPEN, we are milling around and wringing our hands as activists scream, the panty-waists sob in the background, and the politicos scurry into the shadows to wait and watch so that they can come out and support the last man standing.
Like I say.............Let the lights go dark..........Let the 1- 2 hours per evening of rationed electricity start killing the super bowl parties...................Rather than pound sand, the indignant will OK most anything to get the lights back on. Unfortunately, that is not the intelligent thing to do, but it puts a certain point on the urgency of the matter, don't it?.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: Burying the Rad stuff
Hi Jim:
The fusion crowd in Princton has had all the marbles.
It's not like they aren't funding fusion....:>/
Molten salt bath reprocessing has been out of the research labs for 20 years now. They know how to do it without pollution.
But Hanoi Jane and her ilk will not let it happen ...they can just throw another poor person on the fire to keep warm. Until the politico lunny fringe dies of old age you won't see any progress.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
The fusion crowd in Princton has had all the marbles.
It's not like they aren't funding fusion....:>/
Molten salt bath reprocessing has been out of the research labs for 20 years now. They know how to do it without pollution.
But Hanoi Jane and her ilk will not let it happen ...they can just throw another poor person on the fire to keep warm. Until the politico lunny fringe dies of old age you won't see any progress.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech