Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Reflections on fusion history, current events, and predictions for the 'fusion powered future.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Richard Hull » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:30 pm

Dave is correct. Silver is perhaps one of the better holdings. It is portable and yet cheap enough and avaialble in small units compared to gold. In the hardest of times it might just sustain as the daily unit of value. There is plenty of silver out there, too, and it is a far more industrially useful metal than gold. Both gold and silver are the millienal old choices of portable wealth representative along with labor and property.

Sorry about the economics lessons but if a nuclear guy like Soddy could see the resultant energy crisis and a nuclear solution which could ultimately be de-railed by economic crisis, it is important that this be looked at as part of the ultimate equation, not only personally for each of us, but for the impact on energy and vice versa.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by badflash » Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:18 pm

I may be missing something, but other than a lot of really neat info, what is the point? If something happens bad enough to make our current system unworkable, gold & silver will be too. You can't eat it, or live in it. When the ecomomy really dies, you want food, guns, bullets, shelter, and people to watch your back.

An economy is just confidence. A place to store your effort. Once you do enough to be fed and sheltered, everything else is excess. If you can figure out a way to get people to work more that they need to, you get lots of excess. How the excess is distributed is called politics.

I read that the American Indian worked an average of 17 minutes a day to provide for his families needs. Now look at us.

If you are worried about it all comming apart, build a shelter & stock it with stuff you will need. Join a militia. Beyond that, we are just along for the ride. I don't think any of us are going to convince the rest of the world the sky is falling, even if it is. I'll enjoy the excess and tinker.

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Richard Hull
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Richard Hull » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:04 pm

Jack is intrinsically correct, but there will have to spring up nearly instantly, in a dreary scenario, a medium of exchange that is real, beyond barter. Gold and silver will quickly return to their places in the crudest of exchange systems.

If one reads Soddy fully, you will realize that real wealth is in materials and things that are permanent and renewable. Land, Labor and materials. All else is deferred wealth. Money is just tokenized, deferred wealth.

Smart folks will have skills, guns, bullets, gold, silver, land and materials of use and real value at a crunch time, not stocks and bonds or even greenbacks.

All others will be suckin' on hind tits.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Adam Szendrey
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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by Adam Szendrey » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:09 pm

I tend to think that energy will be of extreme value.

Adam

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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by badflash » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:44 pm

If you haven't already, read a copy of Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. Her solution would be great (maybe already in place). Barring that, stock pile the fire wood. Other forms of energy will be many years in comming.

Other books for required reading are Lucifer's Hammer and Mote in God's Eye. Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle have thought this through pretty well, but they are a bit more optimistic than I am.

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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by davidtrimmell » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:48 pm

Rand, Ugg! Lucifer's Hammer was great, but taking and keeping the Nuclear power plant will be no simple task... The great thing is all the idiots with serious guns. Think Iraq, only no occupying army.

It appears Soddy realized a truly sustainable economic system, built on the principles of sound science, something that as Richard pointed out we are so far from. Now we just put our faith in supernatural entities, and we claim to be 'civilized'? But one thing these hairless apes are good at is tinkering, and I am sure we haven't seen the last of that

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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by badflash » Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:38 am

If you say UGGG to Rand, you were unable to wade through the repetition to get to the meat. Anyone that has worked in any big organization can see that only a few keeps any system running. Pull out the keystones and the entire system falls down.

Pull those key creators out and put them together and you get a Manattan Project, or the Poseidon Program, The Space Race, the X-Prize. You get the picture.

People around me call the first part "Rowland's Laws of Corporate Motion". I can't remember where I heard it. "Things at rest stay at rest. Things in motion come to rest unless acted upon by an outside force". The common man cancels out everything. Only a single individual EVER makes a difference. The best of us can upset the balance before anyone can pass a law to "fix" it.

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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by davidtrimmell » Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:44 am

There are many factors involved. The individual can create a significant change, as they also have free will, but for their own good often one succumbs to the pressure of the greater. The CEO of ENRON can ensure delayed prosecution (or even freedom from recent criminal activities) due to his connections and superior race, but nature will always be the great equalizer. It takes more than just putting people together to foster creativity, it takes a purpose. Many lies were fed to those in the Manhattan Project. They did what others would have done anyways. Only sooner.

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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by 3l » Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:17 pm

Hi Jack:

Why do we bother with posts like this?
99.997% of the folks are not whom I'm trying to reach.
It's the .003% of folks who think for themselves,I'm after.
Yes I have read Atlas Shrugged.
In order for Gault to win everything had to fail.
Nothing can totally fail.
Pockets of smart folks will make it and make it well.
Ann Rand was a pessimist on human nature.
In her novel only one group of independants exist,but I have found in my wanderings a large number of folks numbering in the thousands who live a normal life by weekday and build independance on the weekends. This has been occuring for the past twenty years , a new infrastructure is being woven as we speak.
The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
You can Ignore the common man and he won't care at all.
He is as dumb as a box of rocks usually... as long as he's fed,entertained and has a few trifles,he's content.
Living in the moment.
This is not Russia.
Nor is it a utopia by any shot.
You have the freedom to starve if you like.
(The Bush Adminstration has a program under consideration...)
The rules are not an impediment to a creative mind.
I try to have hope for each day and trepidation for the morrow.
Faith without action won't save you.
You can either lead,follow or get out of the way.

Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech

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Re: Infrastructure - the joy and end of us all.

Post by badflash » Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:02 pm

Larry, most people just stay in the way and they niether lead nor follow. I think that is part of the process designed to slow things down so we have time to assess what it is we are doing.

Posts like this allow us to vent, think, and look at our own thoughts. Once in a while it sparks something.

I think Rand was spot on about human nature. I've been on enough projects and have seen the same pattern often enough:
Project Enthusiasm
Disillusionment
Search for the guilty
Punishment of the innocent
Kudos to those who contributed nothing.

I hope you are right about the underground infastructure. I know I lead many lives. Industrial Nuke Instructor by day, Computer Firmware engineer by night, and dabler on the weekends. If enough people do this I suppose something may come of it.

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