Isreali Plutonium Production

Reflections on fusion history, current events, and predictions for the 'fusion powered future.
Codecat
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:11 am
Real name:

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production

Post by Codecat » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:20 am

Hi Again...


Does anyone know if the Isrealies have the facilities to isolate Li-6 in large quantities? Without Li-6, large Ulam type devices are not really possible unless they use a 'wet' or cryo device. I was under the impression (probably mistaken) that only the Soviets, Chinese and the US have large scale Li-6 production capabilities.

Maybe Ike gave them the stuff to make Li-6 like he is rumored to have given them their original fisil material. Or maybe they just ordered it from Sigma chemical.

Does any one remember that after gulf war I, that when weapons inspectors went into Iraq, that they found a stash of Li-6, but of course, no one knew how they obtained it? This was on late night news once, and never heard again.

One wonders at our strange world, doesn't one?

Codecat

Codecat
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:11 am
Real name:

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production

Post by Codecat » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:14 am

Hi Larry...

I re-read your post and a strange, brandy induced thought came to mind. (BTW, I do not mix HV and EtOH)

I am sure that there were a few ideiologs both in the Soviet Union and here in the good old US, but I belive that the true nature of the nuclear cold war arms race was good ol' money and power. Neither side wanted to blow up the world, because there was too much money to be made preparing to blow up the world. However in the mid-east, it is nothing but raw, blind and insane hate that is the driving force for their arms race. they couldn't care less if they blow up the world. I take no sides here, it is only an observation, and I wish that it could end. I am facinated by the physics of nuclear and particularly thermo nukes, but am apalled at the death and suffering that just one could cause, let alone hundreds. Someday, I hope that the only fusion that I read about happens in research labs and amateurs' benches as we try to find solutions to our energy and neutron needs! (No, I do not drive a '68 microbus with flowers painted on it!)

73
Codecat

3l
Posts: 1866
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2001 7:51 pm
Real name:

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production

Post by 3l » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:11 pm

Hi Joe:

The Isreallies have a huge supply of lithium in the brackish waters of the Dead Sea. They have a lithium seperaration plant in the Negev desert that is capable of producing tons of Li6 per year. Jane's Defense Quarterly ran pictures of it back in 85 or 86. It uses thermal seperation on liquid lithium metal.

The Soviet atom works sold a small quantity to Sadam but it was under a kilo.

BTW Alpha Aesar sells Li6 deuteride for 96 dollars a gram.

Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech

Codecat
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:11 am
Real name:

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production

Post by Codecat » Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:55 am

Hi all...

I don't know if I am remembering this wrong, but it seems to me that sometime in the late seventies or early eighties, that South Africa was rumored to have popped an above ground nuke. It wasn't announced but it just so happened that a weather sat caught it by accident. I have heard that the Isrealies worked with the South Africans on a gun type U device (Hiroshima type).

Does anybody know about this incident? I think that it was in the late seventies now, because I remember it right about the time I started chasing the opposite gender.

I also seem to remember an incident way back when that involved a huge roiling "cloud" over the pacific that a civilian jet liner was flying down wind of. When the piolet reported what he saw, wipe samples were taken from the plane and found to be hot. I think that this was when I was a little younger still, but way after the atmospheric test ban treaty.

Does anybody know any thing about this?

All the best
Codecat

User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:44 pm
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production

Post by Richard Hull » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:43 pm

You are correct. The event occured in the Indian ocean east of South Africa. It has pretty much become an article of faith that this was an Atom blast set off on a barge or the like by South Africa.

The new government has supposedly dismantled all the nukes they had ( a few) and has declared itself nuclear weapon free.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

ChrisSmolinski
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:46 pm
Real name:
Contact:

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production

Post by ChrisSmolinski » Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:14 pm

Richard Hull wrote:
> You are correct. The event occured in the Indian ocean east of South
Africa. It has pretty much become an article of faith that this was an Atom
blast set off on a barge or the like by South Africa.
>
> The new government has supposedly dismantled all the nukes they had ( a
few) and has declared itself nuclear weapon free.

FWIW, the version of the story I heard is that the old goverment dismanted
the nukes before the end of apartheid.

I have heard stories that it was a joint Israel/South Africa test.

3l
Posts: 1866
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2001 7:51 pm
Real name:

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production Pt2 Application

Post by 3l » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:06 pm

Hi Folks:

I find it facinating how the US government allows Isreal to run wild.
Exerpts from
Federation of American Scientists
http://www.fas.org/

Israel applies its nuclear weapons to all levels of this formula. The total Israeli nuclear stockpile consists of several hundred weapons of various types, including boosted fission and enhanced radiation weapons ("neutron bombs"), as well as nuclear artillery shells. Strategically, Israel uses its long-range missiles and nuclear-capable aircraft (and, some say, submarines with nuclear-armed cruise missiles) to deter both conventional and unconventional attacks, or to launch "the Samson Option", an all-out attack against an adversary should defenses fail and population centers be threatened. In addition, despite Israel's insistence that it "will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East," these systems represent an effective preemptive strike force. At the same time, Israel deploys tactical systems designed to rapidly reduce an invading force. Following the 1973 war, Israel fielded at least three batteries of atomic-capable self-propelled 175mm cannons equipped with a total of no less than 108 warheads, and placed atomic land mines in the Golan Heights during the early 1980s.

YIKES!

Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech

User avatar
Adam Szendrey
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 10:36 pm
Real name: Adam Szendrey
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production Pt2 Application

Post by Adam Szendrey » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:37 pm

Holy!!
Neutron bombs?? Nuclear landmines?? Good thing i was not drinking something while reading your message Larry, i would've spitted it all over my display...
Neutron bombs...the perfect "tool". Kills organisms, but does limited structural damage...
...If this is all true..i mean the whole world is going crazy (or gone crazy long ago)? Nuclear weapons porograms popping up all over the globe...i would hate to think all the state-of-the-art weapons technologies we don't know of...bio, chemo, and who knows what...
Wow, are we humans good at making weapons, and killing eachother, constantly going into conflicts over pethatic issues...great, i am so proud to be a human :P...ehm...
Yes,yes, i know we have done a number of "wonderful" things aswell...did we? Well, we consider them wonderful, but are they? Well nevermind, this is more of a philosophycal and hystorical topic, than nuclear.

Adam

User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 1:44 pm
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production Pt2 Application

Post by Richard Hull » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:10 pm

You think that is bizarre.........You should read "The Curve of Binding Energy"!! The focus Scientist, Ted Taylor, perhaps the most famous US fissioner and nuke weaponeer, once proposed burying a special high yield fission device incased in a lithium blanket in the arctic ice. It was to be set off and the high plutonium, tritum and heavy isotope yield would be captured in the resulting cavity and ocean of liquified water all ready to be pumped to the surface for massive chemical and isotope separation, exceeding a 10 year total normal national reactor yield of bomb grade materials in one simple blast.

This appeared to be a stroke of shear genius and would have worked on the face of it, but so many of his fellow scientists at Los Alamos were mortified at the thought of actually doing this that opposition was immediate.

However, Taylor had a champion for this scheme in the famous John Von Neuman, then one of the AEC directors. He was fully backing Taylor's massive, high yield, arctic bomb plan and it was moving forward into the planning stage until Neuman's untimely death in 1957, when the plan's detractors prevailed and the shot was cancelled.

Lots of stuff to curl yer toes out there, and most of it DID happen!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

User avatar
Adam Szendrey
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 10:36 pm
Real name: Adam Szendrey
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Isreali Plutonium Production Pt2 Application

Post by Adam Szendrey » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:09 am

There are nukes all over the world, exept for Iraq . Funny and sad at the same time.

That sounds a bit scary indeed, Richard...i mean how do they know they don't blast something that should not be blasted...causing some kind of major structural fault in the arctic ice blanket...
Next thing you know, they are detonating 200 Mt bombs deep in the Earth's crust for some other crazy reason...It's a risky game i think. I should try to get that book some day, sounds interesting (i've read the thread on it, which you started).

Adam

Post Reply