Hi folks:
The thread was getting a bit long and decided to start again.
Lp gas is headed to 2.00 a gallon in my area.
Three dollar gasoline this summer seems to be coming.
I finally found a hydrogen guy I can relate to...
heres his website
http://www.knowledgepublications.com/go ... hine1.html
He has practical solutions that really make the penny pinching engineer in me extremely happy. My objections to hydrogen storage have been set to rest by his really neat solutions to hydrogen storage. With the storage bottle neck removed ,hydrogen can be used year round without thousands in storage equipment. It is the first method that can actually store an entire winter's worth of fuel safely. Amory Lovin's stuff required fuel cells and most importantly but never stated warm climate for water based hydrogen storage tanks. However in the hydrogen and it's uses cd ,the hydrogen
fuel is used in an IC engine for really cheap power. Cars will use rolls of aluminum wire for fuel along with some water. I was a total skeptic but after revueing and checking out his ideas...I'm actually incorporating hydrogen into my alternate systems.
So fusion energy will play a greater role in my future than I had originally planned. I have increased my solar panels to 250 watts
and increased my solar flat panel collectors from 1 4x8 panel to 4 4x8 panels. I had added cooling to my energy goals. I intend to slash my dependance on central energy. If I had been able to apply my LP bill to my hot fusion research it would have infused 1600 bucks in...besides this is dress rehersal for what the fusor will have to do if we get it working.
Getting by until fusion comes!
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Hi Larry!
The link doesn't work (maybe it's just me). Using hydrogen as a fuel seems to become a better and better idea in my mind as time passes.
Here gasoline costs around 1.2 $ /LITER. That means a gallon costs close to 4.5 $ (though Hungary has the highes gasoline prices in europe for some really weird and unknown reason, meanwhile MOL (hungarian oil co.) is the largest oil company in central europe). The prices in the US were kept down "by force". It seems they can't do that anymore. Wonder why...
Adam
The link doesn't work (maybe it's just me). Using hydrogen as a fuel seems to become a better and better idea in my mind as time passes.
Here gasoline costs around 1.2 $ /LITER. That means a gallon costs close to 4.5 $ (though Hungary has the highes gasoline prices in europe for some really weird and unknown reason, meanwhile MOL (hungarian oil co.) is the largest oil company in central europe). The prices in the US were kept down "by force". It seems they can't do that anymore. Wonder why...
Adam
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Adam Szendrey
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- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Ok i've got it.
http://www.knowledgepublications.com/go ... shine1.htm
The "l" at the end was the problem.
Well all i see is "Buy it" or "Free" (in the US ofcourse). Not much usefull info. Maybe i'm looking on the wrong page?
Adam
http://www.knowledgepublications.com/go ... shine1.htm
The "l" at the end was the problem.
Well all i see is "Buy it" or "Free" (in the US ofcourse). Not much usefull info. Maybe i'm looking on the wrong page?
Adam
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Hi Adam:
I bought the books.
I was gonna give them as gifts to my cousin.
But I read them instead...I had to order another set for him.
They are down to earth and easily implemented.
Most importantly don't need special gear or a phd in biology ect.
Btw the solar book can be downloaded for a fee.
The hydrogen book is all future tech policy but the best look can be had at Ebay # 3594399579. hydrogen cd rom.
An exerpt:
"How is hydrogen to be made in the future? How can we do it today? It is 100 year old chemistry and Roy shows the Sodium Hydride cycle of NaH + H20 --> NaOH + H2 and how to reclaim the caustic and recycle it to produce more NaH to react with more water to make my Hydrogen."
A quantum leap over rare earth metallic hydrogen storage in both price and complexity.
The author covered all aspects of hydrogen ... pretty good for a twenty buck disk.
It would be scads cheaper to get the cdrom as opposed to a book in shipment costs to Hungary.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
I bought the books.
I was gonna give them as gifts to my cousin.
But I read them instead...I had to order another set for him.
They are down to earth and easily implemented.
Most importantly don't need special gear or a phd in biology ect.
Btw the solar book can be downloaded for a fee.
The hydrogen book is all future tech policy but the best look can be had at Ebay # 3594399579. hydrogen cd rom.
An exerpt:
"How is hydrogen to be made in the future? How can we do it today? It is 100 year old chemistry and Roy shows the Sodium Hydride cycle of NaH + H20 --> NaOH + H2 and how to reclaim the caustic and recycle it to produce more NaH to react with more water to make my Hydrogen."
A quantum leap over rare earth metallic hydrogen storage in both price and complexity.
The author covered all aspects of hydrogen ... pretty good for a twenty buck disk.
It would be scads cheaper to get the cdrom as opposed to a book in shipment costs to Hungary.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Hi larry
I was wondering if you thought of storing you energy as rotational energy.
Everyone says wind and solar are impractical because you can't store electricity for long, so why not get some old train wheels, spin them up on windy days and enjoy the power when you want?
Please store you kenetic battery in an underground room in case it gets lose.....
Jim T
I was wondering if you thought of storing you energy as rotational energy.
Everyone says wind and solar are impractical because you can't store electricity for long, so why not get some old train wheels, spin them up on windy days and enjoy the power when you want?
Please store you kenetic battery in an underground room in case it gets lose.....
Jim T
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Hi Jim:
Yeah I had considered flywheels.
It would take a very large flywheel or loads of little ones.
Capturing hydrogen and making sodium hydride can store an enormous quantity of hydrogen. A 55 gallon steel drum could hold an entire months fuel load for heating a three bedroom house. A fly wheel of the same potential would be 20 feet in diameter and weigh several tons. Flywheels have another problem they only produce electricity. Conversion of electricty to heat has allways been an uphill battle. With solar electric you only lose once when you make the hydrogen. With flywheels its twice ...once when you spin up and second when you juice the electric heater. Heating is the #2 cost of a home. Cooling is #1.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Yeah I had considered flywheels.
It would take a very large flywheel or loads of little ones.
Capturing hydrogen and making sodium hydride can store an enormous quantity of hydrogen. A 55 gallon steel drum could hold an entire months fuel load for heating a three bedroom house. A fly wheel of the same potential would be 20 feet in diameter and weigh several tons. Flywheels have another problem they only produce electricity. Conversion of electricty to heat has allways been an uphill battle. With solar electric you only lose once when you make the hydrogen. With flywheels its twice ...once when you spin up and second when you juice the electric heater. Heating is the #2 cost of a home. Cooling is #1.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Larry, your sodium hydride storage idea intrigues me. Perhaps you will elaborate on creation and utilisation of sodium hydride for possible use in automotive application. Is weight a problem as with Nickel? What sort of converter would you propose to recover the hydrogen?
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davidtrimmell
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Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
John I am guessing Larry is refuring to a system like this:
"Sodium Hydride-based Hydrogen Storage System"
http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandf ... 890pp2.pdf
Interesting concept that looks like it should work...
Regards,
David Trimmell
"Sodium Hydride-based Hydrogen Storage System"
http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandf ... 890pp2.pdf
Interesting concept that looks like it should work...
Regards,
David Trimmell
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Tks David, A good study.
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Hi Guys:
Yeah thats the process...heating sodium hydroxide in order to drive out the oxygen. Sodium hydride will be formed and kept until it hits water to form hydrogen plus sodium hydroxide.
my thought is to use hydrogen from the solar panels in the summer to heat the lye into fuel for the winter months.
I've been tinkering with the ammonium nitrate- water cooling system. Hydrogen could regenerate the cooling liquid while making heat for the winter.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Yeah thats the process...heating sodium hydroxide in order to drive out the oxygen. Sodium hydride will be formed and kept until it hits water to form hydrogen plus sodium hydroxide.
my thought is to use hydrogen from the solar panels in the summer to heat the lye into fuel for the winter months.
I've been tinkering with the ammonium nitrate- water cooling system. Hydrogen could regenerate the cooling liquid while making heat for the winter.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Ahh, so thats how they make split peas.
What about Calcium hydriate, Larry. It will also work?
You could also use the leftover lye for biodiesel.
What about Calcium hydriate, Larry. It will also work?
You could also use the leftover lye for biodiesel.
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Hi John:
Just about any hydroxide will work.
It is never destroyed but simply run in an endless loop.
So there would never be any leftover.
It is the only energy process I've known to make fuel and poo out oxygen.
Magnesium hydroxide (milk of magnesia)
Calcium hydroxide ( it stores twice the hydrogen as the sodium version)
Aluminum Hydroxide (it stores three times the hydrogen as the sodium version)
Special note if you are utterly broke and can't get the cash.
Pick up a hundred pounds or so of alumninum cans.
Use the lye to break down the metal into h2 +aluminum hydroxide. Heat your house the first year that way then go the totally renewable route the next year.
lithium hydroxide
Maganese hydroxide
ect
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor tech
Just about any hydroxide will work.
It is never destroyed but simply run in an endless loop.
So there would never be any leftover.
It is the only energy process I've known to make fuel and poo out oxygen.
Magnesium hydroxide (milk of magnesia)
Calcium hydroxide ( it stores twice the hydrogen as the sodium version)
Aluminum Hydroxide (it stores three times the hydrogen as the sodium version)
Special note if you are utterly broke and can't get the cash.
Pick up a hundred pounds or so of alumninum cans.
Use the lye to break down the metal into h2 +aluminum hydroxide. Heat your house the first year that way then go the totally renewable route the next year.
lithium hydroxide
Maganese hydroxide
ect
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor tech
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Adam Szendrey
- Posts: 1333
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
- Real name: Adam Szendrey
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Hi Larry!
Let me get this straight. Through a simple chemical reaction one gets "packed fuel", which only needs ordinary tap water to release hydrogen, then heat the hydroxide again, and the cycle repeats.
Sounds neat!
But i'm missing several points here (and my chemistry knowledge is quite limited).
The main point is that in order to generate hydrogen one needs some kind of hydroxide.
I googled around to find out prices.
A 50 lb pellet package (sodium hydroxide) costs around 60-70 $ (in the US).
Larry, how much is needed to store about a month's worth of hydrogen? I'm not sure how much (in weight) sodium hydroxide can a 55 gallon drum hold. If using Al hydroxide one can store hydrogen for 3 months in the same volume, correct?
If i understand correctly, buying the hydroxide is a single purchase, since the fuel generation cycle can be repeated.
Another question: To what temperature the hydroxide must be heated, and for how long?
How much water is needed to release the hydrogen, and how fast is hydrogen released from the water? That depends on the amount of water added right?
Larry, what do you mean when saying: the hydrogen from the solar panels? (i'm not sure how a solar panel itself can generate hydrogen, or do you mean via electrolysis?).
How much hydrogen can lithium hydroxide store? I found pirces on Lithium hydroxide monohydrate, it costs around 2.50 $/kg (1.25/lb). About the same as sodium hydroxide.
Can anyone tell me prices of Al hydroxide? I didn't find any info on that.
I would appriciate any details! Thanks!
Adam
Let me get this straight. Through a simple chemical reaction one gets "packed fuel", which only needs ordinary tap water to release hydrogen, then heat the hydroxide again, and the cycle repeats.
Sounds neat!
But i'm missing several points here (and my chemistry knowledge is quite limited).
The main point is that in order to generate hydrogen one needs some kind of hydroxide.
I googled around to find out prices.
A 50 lb pellet package (sodium hydroxide) costs around 60-70 $ (in the US).
Larry, how much is needed to store about a month's worth of hydrogen? I'm not sure how much (in weight) sodium hydroxide can a 55 gallon drum hold. If using Al hydroxide one can store hydrogen for 3 months in the same volume, correct?
If i understand correctly, buying the hydroxide is a single purchase, since the fuel generation cycle can be repeated.
Another question: To what temperature the hydroxide must be heated, and for how long?
How much water is needed to release the hydrogen, and how fast is hydrogen released from the water? That depends on the amount of water added right?
Larry, what do you mean when saying: the hydrogen from the solar panels? (i'm not sure how a solar panel itself can generate hydrogen, or do you mean via electrolysis?).
How much hydrogen can lithium hydroxide store? I found pirces on Lithium hydroxide monohydrate, it costs around 2.50 $/kg (1.25/lb). About the same as sodium hydroxide.
Can anyone tell me prices of Al hydroxide? I didn't find any info on that.
I would appriciate any details! Thanks!
Adam
Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Hi Adam:
under construction.
The chemistry is pretty straight forward.
A temperature of 1500-2000 F degrees (depends on purity) is required to get to the decomposition point . dry 2NaOH+heat = 2 NaH+O2 gas.
I will use the solar generated h2 to heat the rig at night.
During the day one can use fresnel lenses to cook the lye.
a mole of h2 gas is 10^27 molecules...to get 10 ^27 molecules of h2 or 1 cu ft requires one mole of NaH 22g +(1g) mole ratio
or 23 grams NaH. 18 grams water. 1 mole weight.
About enough hydrogen to fill one toy balloon.
NaH +H2O = NaOH +H2 gas
Now for the energy figures.
An average american home draws at least 4 kw/day on climate control. So to figure a winter's worth lets say the winter lasts one quarter of the year 3 months. well thats almost 100 days so you are looking at 400 kw of heat just for the winter. So what we need to know how much h2 do we burn per second to get the 4 kw figure?
Happy fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
under construction.
The chemistry is pretty straight forward.
A temperature of 1500-2000 F degrees (depends on purity) is required to get to the decomposition point . dry 2NaOH+heat = 2 NaH+O2 gas.
I will use the solar generated h2 to heat the rig at night.
During the day one can use fresnel lenses to cook the lye.
a mole of h2 gas is 10^27 molecules...to get 10 ^27 molecules of h2 or 1 cu ft requires one mole of NaH 22g +(1g) mole ratio
or 23 grams NaH. 18 grams water. 1 mole weight.
About enough hydrogen to fill one toy balloon.
NaH +H2O = NaOH +H2 gas
Now for the energy figures.
An average american home draws at least 4 kw/day on climate control. So to figure a winter's worth lets say the winter lasts one quarter of the year 3 months. well thats almost 100 days so you are looking at 400 kw of heat just for the winter. So what we need to know how much h2 do we burn per second to get the 4 kw figure?
Happy fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Gas prices
At my local garage in the UK I pay 80p per litre for diesel. (petrol is ~76p) i.e. $6.2 per gallon!!!!
Fuel cells
Larry,
have you tried fuel cells? They can be >50% efficient in electricity generation and you can use waste heat. Any second hand ones available over there?
Paul
have you tried fuel cells? They can be >50% efficient in electricity generation and you can use waste heat. Any second hand ones available over there?
Paul
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Adam Szendrey
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- Real name: Adam Szendrey
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Fuel cells
Fuel cells are extremely expensive. A 1 W unit costs 125 $!! That is only good for demonstration (seen it as a learning kit).
A 10 W cell (5 V @ 2 A) costs 1300 $...
It seems their price gets more economical by their power. A 100 W unit costs 3000 $ (which is not ten times more than the price of a 10 W unit).
Strange thing is that i read that generally the price of a fuel cell is 500 $/ kW, but this doesn't seem to show in public prices...
BTW, to generate electrical power from hydrogen, a gas turbine would be much better than boiling water and then turning a steam turbine with the generate steam.
For a gas turbine one simply has to inject a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Maybe the steam that is leaving the gas turbine (from the combination of H and O), can be further used.
Adam
A 10 W cell (5 V @ 2 A) costs 1300 $...
It seems their price gets more economical by their power. A 100 W unit costs 3000 $ (which is not ten times more than the price of a 10 W unit).
Strange thing is that i read that generally the price of a fuel cell is 500 $/ kW, but this doesn't seem to show in public prices...
BTW, to generate electrical power from hydrogen, a gas turbine would be much better than boiling water and then turning a steam turbine with the generate steam.
For a gas turbine one simply has to inject a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Maybe the steam that is leaving the gas turbine (from the combination of H and O), can be further used.
Adam
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Adam Szendrey
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Re: What to do until the fusion jackpot hits Part 2
Though this may seem a stupid question...but at what pressure is one mole of H2 considered 1 cubic feet? I always see the amount of gases given in liters...but the actual amount of gas depends on the pressure for a given volume and temperature. I mean one mole of H2 can fit into one cubic milimeter and into one cubic kilometer (it will fill it eventually, though @ a very low pressure). If the gas is cooled (or pressurized) to a liquid state then it's amount can be given in volume units. Sorry if i'm asking a silly question here
Adam
Adam
Re: Fuel cells
There are also a number of companies doing Stirling engines... long life and can be hydrogen powered.
New fuel cells are expensive, but watch this space, they are about to take off. I expect a few labs, perhaps NASA will have surplus if you know where to go.
Paul
New fuel cells are expensive, but watch this space, they are about to take off. I expect a few labs, perhaps NASA will have surplus if you know where to go.
Paul
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Adam Szendrey
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- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
- Real name: Adam Szendrey
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Fuel cells
I've been insterested in stirling engines a while back. They are indeed simple, and cheap to construct. They have an efficiency of around 30-40 %, which is not too good, but definetly more than nothing.
Surplus? What do you mean by that?
BTW the NASA has been using fuel cells since the nineteen sixties.
Adam
Surplus? What do you mean by that?
BTW the NASA has been using fuel cells since the nineteen sixties.
Adam
Moles and STP
Adam,
good question, shows you are thinking about the issues:
1 mole of an ideal gas has a volume of
22.4 litres (22.4L) at S.T.P. [Standard Temperature and Pressure, 0oC (273K) and 101.3kPa (1 atm)]
24.47 litres (24.47L) at S.L.C [Standard Laboratory Conditions, 25oC (298K) and 101.3kPa (1atm)]
Paul
good question, shows you are thinking about the issues:
1 mole of an ideal gas has a volume of
22.4 litres (22.4L) at S.T.P. [Standard Temperature and Pressure, 0oC (273K) and 101.3kPa (1 atm)]
24.47 litres (24.47L) at S.L.C [Standard Laboratory Conditions, 25oC (298K) and 101.3kPa (1atm)]
Paul
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Adam Szendrey
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- Real name: Adam Szendrey
- Location: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Moles and STP
Ahhha...i thought it's something like that! Thanks for the clarification.
Adam
Adam
Re: Moles and STP
Hi guys:
It been a while since Ive done the gas pressure stuff...I should have put the density at .9 kg/m^3 . I meant to get back and revise that post but people showed up.
The hardest thing to find is the combustion tables data.
I made a bad booboo and lent out my CRC Book!
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
It been a while since Ive done the gas pressure stuff...I should have put the density at .9 kg/m^3 . I meant to get back and revise that post but people showed up.
The hardest thing to find is the combustion tables data.
I made a bad booboo and lent out my CRC Book!
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Re: Gas prices
Hi Paul:
Don't worry the politicians will not be able to push down prices in our country for long...soon we will have 5-6 dollar gas.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Don't worry the politicians will not be able to push down prices in our country for long...soon we will have 5-6 dollar gas.
Happy Fusoring!
Larry Leins
Fusor Tech
Gas prices- possible solution
I know that the electrolytic process to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is a dead end for powering a vehicle due to the slow and energy intensive process. however, would it be possible to supplement the fuel system of a car with the hydrogen produced electrolytically?
a couple of local auto enthusiests have brought to my attention that hy-boosting (hydrogen boosting) will improve fuel efficiency. the idea has been explained as adding 5-20% H2 to the fuel mixture (by volume i guess) before it is injected into the engine. usually done with a standard hydrogen bottle and regulator, it is fairly simple. -though i can not find much real information about this...
any suggestions?
Q
a couple of local auto enthusiests have brought to my attention that hy-boosting (hydrogen boosting) will improve fuel efficiency. the idea has been explained as adding 5-20% H2 to the fuel mixture (by volume i guess) before it is injected into the engine. usually done with a standard hydrogen bottle and regulator, it is fairly simple. -though i can not find much real information about this...
any suggestions?
Q