Loss of the fusor site

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Frank Sanns
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Loss of the fusor site

Post by Frank Sanns »

It appears that the loss of the forum has happened. Threads, photos, posts, have been routed out. Only a very small percentage of what was a great repository of information is no longer viewable.

Here is the chronology of events.

1. We moved hosting to Godaddy a few years back. Everything was brought up to the latest version. I have resisted any upgrades since then because of the hassles we had with Media Temple.

2. On January 16th, Paul needed to update the PHP version that his hosting platform was running. We were at 5.6 and the very next step up through Godaddy was to 7.3+

I have extensive backups going back over a year. They include the structure, the database, the photos, and everything in all of the directories.

As an extra precaution, I took a fresh set of backups the morning before Paul updated the PHP version. As soon as he hit the update button, the had catastrophic changes. Gone were the threads and pictures. Also missing was everything at the top right of the screen for login etc..

We reverted back to PHP 5.6 but whatever happened in that moment stripped away our site.

3. The seemingly logical thing to do was to rename the fusor site folder and keep it safe online. To create a new folder and upload the entirety of the site from the online backup. We did that and things were still missing. Doing the restore of the database would not complete in our phpbb version 3.2.7. The screen just ran for a minute or so and dumped out with an error that it could not restore.

4. Over the next days, I tried every combination of my local files, automatic updates of the phpbb, manual updates, and Andrew Robinson even did a fresh build trying to get it to spark. It did not.

5. I posted over on the phpbb forum soliciting help. At least one person over there was very helpful but our problem is not solved.

6. Right now, the site is updated to 3.3.5 and php 7.4+. It is not possible to restore our 3.2.7 database with the current 3.3.5 but the site is up enough to post here.

7. A few people have graciously offered help but it becomes more time consuming to explain things hence I am posting here. The following screen is what happens when I try to restore the database on our old site and the new one. If anybody can solve this, I am all ears. Otherwise the future does not look good for our great site.

General Error
SQL ERROR [ mysqli ]

Duplicate entry '25451' for key 'PRIMARY' [1062]

SQL

INSERT INTO phpbb_posts (post_id, topic_id, forum_id, poster_id, icon_id, poster_ip, post_time, post_reported, enable_bbcode, enable_smilies, enable_magic_url, enable_sig, post_username, post_subject, post_text, post_checksum, post_attachment, bbcode_bitfield, bbcode_uid, post_postcount, post_edit_time, post_edit_reason, post_edit_user, post_edit_count, post_edit_locked, post_visibility, post_delete_time, post_delete_reason, post_delete_user) VALUES (254XXX.............................
....................0)

BACKTRACE

FILE: (not given by php)
LINE: (not given by php)
CALL: msg_handler()

FILE: [ROOT]/phpbb/db/driver/driver.php
LINE: 1020
CALL: trigger_error()

FILE: [ROOT]/phpbb/db/driver/mysqli.php
LINE: 202
CALL: phpbb\db\driver\driver->sql_error()

FILE: [ROOT]/phpbb/db/driver/factory.php
LINE: 345
CALL: phpbb\db\driver\mysqli->sql_query()

FILE: [ROOT]/includes/acp/acp_database.php
LINE: 237
CALL: phpbb\db\driver\factory->sql_query()

FILE: [ROOT]/includes/functions_module.php
LINE: 676
CALL: acp_database->main()

FILE: [ROOT]/adm/index.php
LINE: 81
CALL: p_master->load_active()
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

The site can't be restored, but there IS a full backup (text/videos) somewhere?
Can this backup archive be posted somewhere?
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Frank Sanns
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Frank Sanns »

We have multiples of every single text, photo, attachment, names, etc..

Unfortunately phpbb does a form of forced encryption. Names, text, photos and such are severed from each other and scattered with 37 alphanumeric long string names. No extensions and no way to even list by date or author. It is a nightmare.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

Everything after ~2015 seems inaccessible, but everything before seems ok with good linked photos.

I wonder, what if we found a host that would host the old version (3.2.7 database at verrsion 5.6), could we access the backup if it was restored there then manually transfer the threads or try the upgrade there (sort of like a sandbox)?
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Frank Sanns »

That is the frustrating part. We rolled back to php 5.6 and tried to restore. Phpbb 3.2.7 would have no part of it. I have regular full backups from Jan 16, 2022 back to 2019. NONE will restore!!!!
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Bob Reite
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Bob Reite »

You will have to set up a machine with an older OS that will support the version of PHP and mySQL that is used with the version of phpBB that you took the backup from. It would probably not be wise to have it on the Internet because of security issues with older releases.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Frank Sanns »

Complications: Phpbb 3.2.7 apparently has some issue with the restore function. At least that is what we are experiencing and it has been posted on the phpbb site.
We rolled back to php 5.6 where we were when this starts and when you hit the restore, a blank screen comes up after about one minute. No restore.

There is also a way to restore the database through the PHPmyadmin route. This scares the hell out of me because we lost 2 weeks of data the last time I made a change there. Complicating it more is that Paul has uploaded a bunch of stuff on his websites so we risk that.

I am not an expert in php or phpbb but I have exhausted all of the logical and some stretches to get things back.

My thought is since phpbb 3.2.7 is not going to give the backup that somebody skilled in php do the database restore and not destroy Paul's other sites and his updates.

This stuff is like voodoo, black magic. I mean there are two independent systems at play here. PHP and PHPBB. Each of them are independent and evolved at their own rates but they totally rely on each other or they both fail! It is not the way things should be working. No safety net if you happen to be near a version change. And when it fails, it is not just a glitch, it is a system wide catastrophe.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Bob Reite
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Bob Reite »

Don't try it on the live machine! Set up another local machine and try the restore on that system using the PHPmyadmin route. If it works there, then apply it to the production system.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by thecoalman »

Frank, see the PM I sent you on phpbb.com. This is apparently a series of issues some of which have compounded each other.

At this point however this is the largest issue:
a blank screen comes up after about one minute
I don't believe you mentioned this on phpBB.com. This is usually the result of a suppressed php error and in this case likely exceeding the max execution time and/or MySql limits. This is the best information I have heard so far because I'm about 99.9% positive the import simply doesn't have enough time to complete resulting in the missing posts. In other words the backup is likely complete.

If you want help, I'm offering without compensation. As I noted in my PM it can be my contribution to science. If you insist I'll take payment in beer.
Frank Sanns wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:49 am
This stuff is like voodoo, black magic.
It's not fusion science. :P
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Frank Sanns »

And herein lies the next problem. Memory on the host. I keep some of the backups online along with all of Pauls other sites. I can only host two versions of the site or memory is gone. Things pile up quickly with a full mirror of all of the files plus a half dozen or so backups.

Paul and I talked and I believe we are going to split fusor.net off from all of the other domains that are hosted on his site. A stand alone would sure make it safer and easier. I believe there are 7 or 8 databases all intertwined right now.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Frank Sanns »

Thecoalman is the phpbb expert from the other site. He has generously offered to give us an assist. Most grateful beyond words. Stay tuned here.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Joe Gayo »

3 cheers for thecoalman ... I'll give you a beer!

https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtop ... &t=2613591
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Richard Hull
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Richard Hull »

I am of no assistance but it is good to see work being done. Save what we can if worst come to worst. I would hate to return to 2015, but if that is all we have as complete with images.....Well... I am happy to see the effort all those knowledgeable in such things is being put forward.

I realize that all posting at this point will probably not be brought forward. So I will not post at all until we get an all clear to resume, if it occurs.
I would suggest no posting of data or images until that happen. Watch this forum (admin) for updates from Frank.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Finn Hammer »

All,
My hat is off to all who have spent time trying to restore the site, and I am going to suggest something which may be impossible, stupid, whatever; my insight in server software is non existant.
However, would it not be possible to restore the forum on a local PC, running the software that was on the server before the upgrade?
A site grab could then be taken, with a website copier, which could be made available. This would create a static copy of the site, frozen in time, a snapshot if you like, for back references only.
Then we could move forward with a fresh new forum on a separate server.

Just my 10 cents.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Paul_Schatzkin
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

Hey Guys,

I guess I should chime in here.

Frank and I have been talking about this fiasco for the week since it first erupted, but it wasn't until last night that I started to feel the full impact of what may have happened here. I read his post that starts this thread and went into a state of what can only be described as grief.

I am not sure how this happened, what cascading sequence of impossible events has brought us to this impasse. One obvious and easy thing led to another and the next thing you know we've off a driven off a cliff and we're plunging into the abyss. Fusor.net, meet Thelma and Louise.

And I am fighting a certain ambivalence about the whole situation.

Somewhere in my journals I have the beginnings of an essay that starts with "Why I don't really care about fusion any more" - a difficult admission to make after first being captivated by the concept nearly 40 years ago and starting this site more than 20 years ago.

At lot of that decaying attitude stems from all of the disparaging things that Richard has posted here about Philo Farnsworth's contributions to IEC and fusion science – and the surrender of certain long-standing beliefs about the underlying mythology.

The more I read, "fusion is twenty years in the future and always will be" the more I seem to descend into "then why bother"?

I mean, how can you argue with the juxtaposition of that statement... and the fact that this site has been here for.... wait for it.... more than twenty years?!?!

When I started this site I was in my 40s. I'm in my 70s now(!). I don't have another twenty years to wait another twenty years, yaknowhutImean, Vern?

But that's my own personal conundrum, just things I've been thinking about for a while now. I've probably said all I need to say on the subject in the few paragraphs above. </pity party>

What I don't doubt is the long term value of what has evolved here, nor my unwavering gratitude to all those who have contributed and sustained it since the first seed was planted in 1990-whatever it was.

These sentiments are also tempered by a sense of inadequacy. This all started because I had acquired some nascent web-development skills in the late 1990s. I have to admit that my skill set is pretty stuck in that era, and so it has fallen on Frank and others to assume the responsibility for keeping this thing going.

And now the whole enterprise seems to have surpassed ALL of our combined skill sets. What a fucking fiasco (it's my site, I can drop f-bombs if I want).

It is really hard to fathom what has happened here. It seems like a perfect storm of conflicting standards sprinkled with a few dashes of ill-advised updates and... poof: twenty years of compiled info gets scattered to the digital winds.

And it certainly didn't help to have some millennial child in the Philippines – with roosters crowing in the background – tell us that GoDaddy doesn't have a backup we can restore because we "don't subscribe to that level of service..." Great... NOW they tell us that's a fucking OPTION we have to pay EXTRA for???

Like I said... a savage, perfect storm of Internet insanity. And like somebody else said above, sustaining nuclear fusion seems easier than what we're now dealing with.

Jeezus.

I am going to talk with Frank this afternoon, and we're going to forge a path forward.

We have already discussed the imperative to separate Fusor.net from my other Internet enterprises. It seems reasonable to assume that updating one thing has screwed up another, thought we were assured all along that these things are compartmentalized and bullet proof. Apparently "bullet proof" doesn't mean much when somebody plants a bomb under the car...

We'll figure something out.

We still have everything, somewhere, in some format. It's all been backed up every which way since Tuesday. The problem is that (as I understand it) under the current paradigm, the backups don't fully restore the site. And as in the past the biggest hiccup is around re-attaching all the photos.

So thank you all for your patience, your forbearance, and your input above.

More to come.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Paul_Schatzkin »

3 cheers for thecoalman ... I'll give you a beer!

https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtop ... &t=2613591
I just discovered this thread at phpbb.com a few moments after posting my despair above.

I'll buy the guy a case of beer.

--P
Paul Schatzkin, aka "The Perfesser" – Founder and Host of Fusor.net
Author of The Boy Who Invented Television: 2023 Edition – https://amz.run/6ag1
"Fusion is not 20 years in the future; it is 60 years in the past and we missed it."
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Frank Sanns »

This thread is most likely going to disappear shortly. Keep a copy of your posts please.

As for the cause, it lays squarely on my inability to know yet another computer system. I am past retirement age and have had to learn more programing systems than I care to think about. While I SHOULD know more about our platforms, PHP and shell commands, I do not. Clearing the cache is one thing I should have done a few dozen times over the years but not being able to restore a backup because something is timing out is not something that is intuitive and the answer pops out. I mean it takes a couple of minutes for a database backup, so would timing out after 1 minute on the restore imply that something is timing out? I guess if you know, you know, if you don't then you think the backup files are bad. But they were not. My head is going to explode. This is NOT as intuitive as those that work with a particular platform in non routine situations. Sure when things are running normally, it is easy. Once something different is input, then the output is no longer intuitive. In fact, no previously used logic can understand this new output.

I had never even heard of phpbb before it was suggested to host our forum. A crash course in how to make forums and run the day to day was not too difficult but enter the back end and for a person that has never taken an interest in computer or taken a class, it was not fun. Trodding all of the way yet AGAIN for a new system. What happened to DOS, BASIC, FORTRAN and everything up to all of the details of the last platform we were on? Hell, what happened to the slide rule; I could crank out anything in seconds with that. How often do we really need more than 3 significant figures!

So the answer is that operating the backend of the site needs somebody with that expertise. We would not ask a computer person to operate a nuclear reactor or do organic chemistry in potentially dangerous circumstances. That is similar of what is being asked of me. While I remain committed to continue, it needs to be known that when updates are happening, we need a person more familiar with these things. I have learning new system fatigue from a life of it. Just getting tired. Want to spend my time doing other things including doing fusor work and running the day to day forum stuff. No problems there.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Matt_Gibson »

I’ve seen “pictures” mentioned a few times now. Would it be easier to restore and leave out the pictures? We could find our old threads and re-upload our pictures later.

I have zero programming skills, which is why I went to work for the electric utilities, but will offer to help out however I can. I didn’t expect to become so twitterpated by fusors, but I did. Hopefully more like me will come along :-)

Maybe we could setup a GoFundme (or something) to pay for whatever upgrades would help prevent this in the future?

-Matt
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Bob Reite »

If "thecoalman" can't fix it, may I have a crack at it? All I need are your backup files, I would need the mySQLdump as well as the phpBB backup. I have a server that I can run this on, as well as another local machine to test with. I use phpBB for a gaming forum so I am familiar with it. I don't think that this site takes a lot of bandwidth, so I could host it at least temporarily as http://fusor.telcen.com/board.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by John Futter »

Frank Paul and The Coalman
thank you for your persistance

Frank I'm like you too old to learn too many new tricks
I'm still an admin on Dougs site but I have no idea so I leave well alone

thank you once again "Coalman"
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Richard Hull
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Richard Hull »

I just posted my lamentations and frustrations on the "post problems here" post above here. Like Paul my problems are singularly unique having been here since Dec 98, on Songs and then the Intranet. All those images gone. Perhaps forever. Bob's suggestion may be it....all images for 23 years gone forever, just start posting new images and for those who never posted more than 100 images, perhaps a reload of what they have on hand. Oh well.

As for Paul's fusion dream....It was a nice one until the alarm went off. I never had that dream. A simple look at the science, in depth would suffice. I was happy just to hope for the lucky donkey with no time frame. It is like Bob Hirsch said in 2000 to me..."Richard if fusion controlled power will ever be done it will be done in the small, like fission."

I knew that fusion, as a process, was abysmally easy to do and that was enough for me. Once I did it and got into it and understood it at a core level, the "real soon now" went away and was replaced by "no child born today will ever live so long as to see one watt of fusion energy ever come from a wall outlet."

I cannot heap enough praise on those who have struggled to restore a site that has shown like a diamond to amateur fusioneers and amateur physics enthusiasts for 20+ years. A site where open source material of a high grade could be found by many.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Maxwell_Epstein »

I cannot speak to the importance of this site beyond to say that the information and environment here have been incredibly influential to me. This site and its community have changed the trajectory of my life by pointing me toward fusion. I cannot speak to the php issue that caused the temporarily loss of the site beyond to express my gratitude to all who were involved in its restoration and my hope that a similar issue does not occur again.

In the event that it does, however, I have begun backing up all FAQ posts onto the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine, a publicly accessible and very stable service that saves "snapshots" of submitted web pages indefinitely. At some point the site will disappear, even if that point is many years in the future, and I am adamant that the information and discussions here be retained for future fusioneers and for newbies like me who would have had zero guidance without this site.

As Wayback Machine submissions must be done manually (unless the site owners purchase an Archive-It subscription which I highly recommend), it will take me some time to backup everything so I will keep (and update) a record of my progress below:

Sections Fully Submitted:
FAQs: Fusion and Fusor Theory



Max E.
See my needlessly verbose fusor blog here: https://highschool-fusioneer.medium.com/!
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by thecoalman »

In case anyone is interested in who the "thecoalman" man is my real name is Scott. I'm a fourth generation "Coal man". There is the gas man, the milk man and the coal man. Of course the name is politically incorrect these days. I delivered coal for 20 years as owner/operator with what is called a high lift truck Gravity is your friend in this business. This is a seven ton lift, overall about 20K pounds in the air with the box.

Images are linked to the full image.


Image



The username dates back to mid nineties. Currently my only interest in the coal industry is my site which is for people seeking information on residential coal heating, it's not what you think. These units use anthracite which is distinctly different than soft coal at least as far as the soot and other issues commonly related with soft coal.

Just to give you an idea this is on the high end for stoves:

Image

Your next question may be why do we have a truck driver who delivered coal for a living fixing our site. I wrote my first line of code in 1983 on a C-64. I built my first website in 2000 and I have nearly as many years experience with phpBB. I'm also a member of the phpBB team.

Frank has offered to pay me for my time despite the fact I offered this for free. I'm going to respectfully decline. I'll occasionally take on projects like this for non-profits or other similar situations. More importantly to myself I can consider this my contribution to the advancement of science in my own way.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by Rich Feldman »

Yay for coalmen, milkmen, mailmen, etc. And thank you, Scott, for contributing your expertise here.

Your pictures remind me: when I re-post my "things for sale" here at fusor.net, will include:
Chunks of coal, up to 20 lbs total, for cost of shipping.
In my part of the country, that ubiquitous mineral is not commonly touched or even seen.
Don't know what kind -- I got it at a garage sale 20 years ago, maybe from somebody's DIY forge project.
Can experts distinguish grades of coal just by looking, or simple chemical assay do-able in the kitchen?
Do coals have gamma spectra from embedded radioisotopes?
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Re: Loss of the fusor site

Post by thecoalman »

Rich Feldman wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:37 am:
Chunks of coal, up to 20 lbs total, for cost of shipping.
There was a post on my site a few years back from someone looking for anthracite that had an old boat in SF. It had a coal stove they were burning wood in. They ended up getting a couple of pallets shipped to them for something like $600 a ton, anthracite is not cheap to begin with relative to other coal but that's about three times the cost locally. I had requested picture of a bag with the Golden Gate in the background but unfortunately never received it. In the US the primary source of anthracite is Northeast PA, it has some of the largest and highest quality deposits in the world. As you move away from the area cost rises because of shipping. Most people using anthracite coal will be in the Northeast US without access to piped gas. I have yet to meet someone that switched from wood to coal that regretted it.

Anthracite has a carbon content 85 to 95 percent carbon, the highest quality anthracites have a glass like consistency. What may come as a surprise is one of it's uses is filter media for water plants. They use it as replacement for sand applications, anthracite fractures into odd shapes making the filter more effective and last longer. It's likely many people reading this have drank water filtered with anthracite coal. <gasp>
Can experts distinguish grades of coal just by looking, or simple chemical assay do-able in the kitchen?
An "expert" like myself can grade it simply by the sound it makes going down the chute. The higher the quality the more dense it is giving you different sound. Testing anthracite is typically done by ash content after it's been burned. Typically 11%, but the higher grades can go as low as 4%.

Do coals have gamma spectra from embedded radioisotopes?
Wrong guy to ask.
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