Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

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Cai Arcos
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Cai Arcos »

I have thought a little bit about this topic, and wanted to share some ideas:

1.- I believe in it's important to discuss common fusors and Doug fusors somewhat separately. Normal fusors are two terminal devices, while Doug used another grid as an ion source. I already commented on this on another thread, but it's three grid configuration was quite similar to a Plasmatron, with the region between the anode and main cathode (the central grid) operated in such a way as to avoid breakdown. Then, the ion source grid can be used to modulate the plasma density. This produces gain (the "gas PNP device" or "plasma triode" Doug used to write about). Having gain, making an oscillator seems possible.
Some previous posts (http://www.coultersmithing.com/forums/v ... grid#p4854) for instance, very strongly seems to reassemble a blocking oscillator, and it would make sense for the current peaks shown in that mode of operation to be accompanied by very high ion density regions, which due to the it's short duration suffers less from space charge effects.

2.- Regarding coherent ion motions, it seems hard for me to believe this as the origin of oscillations. In order for coherent oscillations (Barkhausen-Kurtz oscillations) to form, one needs a few passes of the ions, so that the may lock in phase. This necessarily requires a mean free path large enough, which at the pressures of interest just isn't there. (That's just one requirement, one also requires a high enough current as to have a low enough negative resistance)
That isn't to say that ion bunching occurring as a result of some ion transit time mechanism isn't possible. If I understand correctly the literature that existed around BK oscillators, bunching could be induced by applying a voltage whose period coincides with the ion transit times, even when the oscillations didn't occur on their own. As a matter of fact, I found this short paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/1411009a0) which pretty much describes and includes references to this. It seems to me that this is the "driven recirculation" Doug talked about.

Just some thoughts I wanted to add to this great discussion.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Frank Sanns »

Some of us have run multiple grids with and without the possibility of recirculation. Biases can be plus or minus the full inner grid potential, reversed, or oscillated. This photo is just one of the configs to examine plasma extinction and the ringing that happens during which.

I also keep hearing the ugly word of mean free path again. It was my understanding that I put that misconception to rest a decade and a half ago. The MFP in a fusor using deuterium is on the order of multiple meters and not just centimeters.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Richard Hull »

I remember and took Frank's now ancient post to heart. MFP is also thermally determined. Hot, (high energy deuterons) are not lazy room temperature ions as figured in the normal vacuum sense.

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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Joe Gayo »

@Frank

The mean free path for high energy molecular deuterium to charge exchange with background neutrals at pressures present is amateur fusors is centimeters at best.
(https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/4028813)
DionChargeExchange.PNG
D2ionChargeExchange.PNG
length[cm] = 1 / (density [atoms/cm^3] * sigma [cm^2/atoms])

density = (0.01 Torr * 1 cm^3) / (gas constant * 300 Kelvin) = 3.22 * 10^14 atoms/cc
sigma = 10 * 10^-16 cm^2/atom
length = 3.1cm

And one can see from the graph that getting too high energy is improbable... The system is dominated by fast neutrals and much lower than cathode potential ions (1/5th based on published research)
Last edited by Joe Gayo on Thu May 27, 2021 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Frank Sanns »

Lets do a calculation to see what comes out. The formula for MFP is:
Screen Shot 2021-05-27 at 4.43.07 PM.png
Solving the equation give the mean free path for D2 at room temperature and 15 microns to be 12 cm. The fusor is not Maxwellian so the temperature is far different for the accelerated deuterons than it is for the bulk of the chamber.

The T in the equation is 136,000 times higher for a 35 keV deuterium ion than it is for deuterium at room temperature. Naively using this number would give a MFP of 1.6 Km. Because of the charge, it is far far less that but it must also be much greater than the room temperature MFP of 12 cm.

A near collision with a neutral atom and a deuteron, does not mean it stops or gets captured. Even if captured, only 13 eV is lost in an electrical reaction but most will be deflections with a change in direction of momentum but not a loss in KE. A full neutralization will only make it a fast neutral that is still moving at fusion speeds. Electrons will be picked up and knocked back off many times during its velocity loss back down to the bulk plasma velocities.

If the MFP were only 1 cm, then no fusor bigger than 1 cm across would work as well as they do. If the MFP were not larger than the largest fusor, there would be a trail off in efficiency in the larger fusors which is not seen. Sure the little cube fusors wall load quicker and get great numbers but they are the same magnitudes as the largest of them.

The MFP of the hot ions has to be enough for multiple passes. Also see my work on Ion path in Fusor. The trajectories of charged ions across more than one path length of half a meter or greater are the only explanation of how ions could end up where they do after accelerating towards, passing through, and exiting the central grid.
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Joe Gayo
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Joe Gayo »

@Frank

I don't think we are going to agree. We don't need to. I would like to see recent IEC research that suggests your perspective is correct.

Of course, my post is based on probabilities, as all observed physics is based on probability. It's not a hard limit. Some will travel longer and gain higher energy, but most will have charge exchange collisions several times.

The idea that the bulk of ions are oscillating around the cathode many times is not plausible.

Here is my submission:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ent_plasma

It says:
- Ion energy peaks around 1/5 cathode voltage (of course there are higher and lower)
- Charge exchange dominates producing fast neutrals or anions (wall collisions)
Last edited by Joe Gayo on Thu May 27, 2021 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by JoeBallantyne »

Hi Joe -

I'm curious how you got the sigma @50KV of 10x10e-16 in your calculation.

Neither of the graphs have any data at 50kev - the top one ends at about 20kev for deuterium, and the bottom one is in units of ev, not kev.

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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Joe Gayo »

@Joe

D2 energy / 2 = D energy (equivalent velocity)

The top graph roughly shows D+ to 25kV, which is 50kV D2+ in terms of velocity


Take a look at my old post - viewtopic.php?t=12634
Last edited by Joe Gayo on Thu May 27, 2021 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by JoeBallantyne »

It looks to me like both graphs end at about 13kev. The one that is labeled d+D2 stops at about 13kev on the Ed+ scale at the top. The one that is labled p+D2 also ends at about 13kev on the top scale for Eh+. It looks to me like the top Eh+ scale applies to the p+D2 graph as h+ is p, and that the second from the top Ed+ scale applies to the d+D2 graph as d+ is d. That would mean that the max accelerating voltage used to create those graphs was about 13KV. Furthermore the p+D2 graph is clearly dropping fast even at 13kev which is a long way from 50kev. It is not clear what the d+D2 graph is going to do at higher energies.

Granted I could be wrong, but that is what I see when I look at that top graph.

Joe.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Joe Gayo »

@Joe

My post was about an approximation of the scale of travel. The ions aren't instantly at any level of KeV, they accelerate in the electric field gradient (V/cm).

We can quibble about whether they travel 2cm or 10cm but the bottom line is the same.

I edited it to convey the exact same point ... if you want meters then the chamber pressure needs to be orders of magnitude lower.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by JoeBallantyne »

Assuming that the d+D2 graph at higher energies curves in a similar way to the h+D2 graph, and that they both fall as fast as they rise in the lower energy region, you could arguably say that the cross section might be as much as a factor of 10 smaller - 1*10e-16, which would make the MFP 10 times longer or on the order of 30cm or so. Most amateur fusors don't have chambers that big.

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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Joe Gayo »

Joe

You have to get to that point in the curve. I'm done arguing. I've shared all the necessary information to see what's happing.

I'm going back to work on my devices to make more neutrons.

Good luck.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Frank Sanns »

We do not have to agree and I get it. I have been through the graphs and done the calculations. At the end of the day though, experimental evidence has to be considered as it is the real environment that we are working in.

To add some facts, essentially 100% off all electrons, at all of potentials within the operating fusor are lost to wall heating. They provide essentially zero ionizations. Any ionization that is done is essentially only by ions and fast neutral atoms and molecules.

The ionizations are made visible by the recombination of electrons and falling energy levels from previously ionized gas. This gives a clearly visible marker to where the ions are in the fusor.

I had been intrigued on how these long star trails do not stop at the outer grid (10 inches in my case) but pass on to the outer chamber, sometimes 4 inches past that. This cannot occur if an ion on the other side of the fusor is accelerated to to potential and then loses the potential on the way out. Conservation of energy says it can't go higher than the energy put in just like dropping a ball on the ground can't go any higher than the height from which it was dropped. However, every single day of operation, I see complete violation of this conservation law. The only answer is that there are tangential paths from a previous fall. Energy is maintained and the momentum vector changes direction for the next path. This residual energy is the only explanation for the longer exit paths than the entrance one.

The heat marks on the inside of all of our fusors are the result of these ions hitting the walls with significant residual energy and even enough to cause fusion pithing the wall itself. That energy cannot come from simply falling through a potential and losing that energy on the exit.

Here is a photo of the electrons origins and patterns on the wall of a temporary Pyrex spherical insulation within my fusor. Notice no visible plasma where the electrons are accelerated toward the walls, in this case and insulator that fluoresces in the electron beam. It is in the Images section under Tickling the Fusor Dragon.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by JoeBallantyne »

@Joe - My intention was not to argue, or be difficult. Simply to try to understand where you got the numbers you were plugging into your equations. I agree with you that the MFP is most likely on the order of cm or 10s of cm, not meters or 10s of meters for a fusor that is running at 5-15 microns (5*10e-3 torr). My understanding is that your fusor runs at MUCH lower pressures like 10e-5 torr. Which would mean that your MFP ought to be significantly higher.

@Frank - Assuming your fusor has a visible plasma ball in the center (Joe Gayo's does not as his pressures are much lower.) Then there will be at least some transfer of energy between ions in the plasma, and there will therefore be some percentage of the ions that actually end up with a higher speed than what you are driving the plasma with. ie: some of the ions will come out hotter than the hottest ions you are sending in. And they will smash into the walls and get lost. I don't know that anyone has proven exactly what kind of energy distribution there is in the plasma in the center of a typical fusor, but I suspect it may be more Maxwellian than most want to admit. In which case the tail of the distribution could have ions with energies higher than the ones you are driving the plasma with.

From what you are describing, that MUST be the case, as you said there are visible indications of activity outside your anode.

Joe.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Dennis P Brown »

While most power supplies are more Lorentzian in out put power, these also have tails; further, as I understand, any semi-sharp or sharp metal surface can and will create significantly higher potentials allowing a small number of electrons to accelerate well above the PS normal potential - this is often exploited with needle point discharges. Of course, the average of all power the supply can achieve is conserved.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Richard Hull »

To restart the thought process here......The power supply is a major issue to limiting the energy available to any oscillator at any frequency. Ultra low impedance would seem to be the ticket. In any oscillator, the RC or LC time constant is critical to the frequency of oscillation. In a purely RC relaxation oscillator the capacitor is the item that determines the rate of oscillation assuming there is no actual resistor inserted short of the gas resistance and that of the power source.

As to the LC oscillatory rate just as in the pure RC case, there is now an RLC circuit. The R value will always limit the power available to the oscillator.

Think on this a bit.

Richard Hull

P.S. I did replace my original equivalent circuit lost in the last major issue of backup. All of Joe's diagrams and circuits are probably lost forever.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Frank Sanns »

Rereading this thread, I may have inadvertently taken it off course a bit by discussing the dynamics of the plasma. Back to the original question of the electronic circuit as a whole.

It is important to point out that in the case of an unfiltered 60 hz power supply, like you are running Richard, the plasma will behaving like it is being entirely switched on and off. This is due to the long time period of the 60hz voltage swings compared to the relaxation time of the plasma itself. Of course once things are very hot and electrons are boiling off then the hot grid becomes the maintainer of the plasma and the 60 hz is superimposed on top of it.

This would be important because there are two separate circuits; the simple low temperature grid plasma/circuit one and then the more complicated red hot grid electron fueled plasma one.

The first case, of the low temperature grid one is the simpler of the two. Working backwards, the question might be, what would the circuit look like at as a function of pressure, voltage and current. We all know that answer as they are intimately related. However, there is a limit to the current at all times. Having a power supply capable of 50 full amps at 20kv is not going to dump all of that power into the plasma because of its own resistance. So running a monster power supply or big capacitors does not a mega watt pulsed Fusor make. There is also induction that will limit too as things complicate quickly.

In the hot grid mode, dumping 50 amps into the Fusor most likely will create a large catastrophic bang as electrons and boiled off metal from the inner grid will continue to build until something fails, i.e. grid melted, hole in outer shell with loss of vacuum, stalk melted off, etc..

The most complicated of the circuits will be the hybrid conditions that exist between the cold grid with well behaved plasma and the very hot grid where low resistance boiling off electrons and vaporizing conductive metal are the predominant modes.

Of course the best place to operate a Fusor with the highest neutron numbers are at the balance point between those two states.
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We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Richard Hester »

I actually found the short treatise I generated on using a thyratron to switch a PFN into a fusor via a step-up transformer lurking on my computer. The big problem I see in retrospect is matching the plasma to the impedance of the PFN through the pulse transformer. Some sort of ballasting impedance would likely be needed between the transformer output and the fusor plasma - a low-capacitance inductor of some sort may just be the ticket... If I remember correctly, the current levels were such that a humble 5C22 could work as the switch. This all assumes that the voltage across the plasma does not collapse with the higher current discharge into some sort of arc mode.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by JoeBallantyne »

It would be great if you could post that treatise you wrote on the site.

I'm interested in reading it, and I am sure others are also.

Joe.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Richard Hull »

The trick with any H thyratron switching near its voltage and current limit is to allow for a short but real kick back of negative circuit voltage across the tube to turn it off. Naturally the grid is also at zero volts during this time period. Typically on times of 2-5us with a rep rate of up to 1khz is about the limit at full rated power on a 5C22. Again you need a current reversal to turn this bad boy off. Common in a ringing circuit with inductance. First negative ring pulse turns off the thyratron.

I used this as a switch of the HVDC to a tesla coil primary. Quiet and worked great on 4 or 5 difference setups and different H thyratron tubes.

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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Rich Gorski
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Rich Gorski »

Seems like you could DC bias the 5C22 grid negatively to say -200V. Then supply a +500V pulse to the grid to turn it on. A 500V pulse should be no trouble with today's MOSFET type devices. That should guarantee turn off. In the like manner you could also positively bias the cathode/heater circuit at +200V. Then again pulse to grid at +500V to turn it on. With the anode at high HV biasing the grid or cathode at a few hundred volts shouldn't change operating characteristics much.

On a similar topic, I have created a single shot pulser system from scratch using a 2.75CF cube (photo below). The cube contains two tungsten 1/4" diameter electrode rods held at an adjustable ~1/4" gap on two adjacent ports. Vacuum was through a third port going down into the 10-5 Torr range. One of the W electrodes is connected to a 15uF, 45kV C bank (15kJ at full voltage) with the other W electrode connected to a PFN and then to the pulse device which was a coaxial plasma rail gun in this case. Switching was accomplished by a puff valve on a fourth port of the cube which was filled with helium gas at ATM pressure. The valve was activated by a simple solenoid. The sudden gas emitted into the cube chamber fired the switch effectively connecting the C bank to ground through the rail gun. The purpose of this was to measure plasma velocity by TOF measurement for fusion possibilities. Highest velocity measured back then was on the order of 150km/s using helium. This is nearing fusion capability. I don't recall the pulse current but I'm sure it was in the KAmps over a period of around 50us. One interesting problem was that I blew up turbo controllers regularly due to some pulse current/voltage finding its way back through the ground system and into the controller. I tried a number of things to fix the problem with only limited success and finally decided on just switching to a diff pump (no electronics).

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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Richard Hester »

The only problem with a mosfet switching scheme is that the grid of a triode thyratron pulses up to near the plate supply voltage at turn-on. I found this out the hard way trying to drive a 2050 thyratron with a CMOS gate - worked the first few pulses, then no more gate... A drive transformer might be a better solution. A small horizonal output tube may be the bee's knees in that application, as it is rated for the 6kV retrace pulse in a horizontal scan drive/TV HV supply.
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Richard Hull »

Richard H. is correct. Way back in the 80's when I worked with hydrogen thyratrons pulsing in the megawatt peak range. I used a 555 to trigger the grid and a hand wound pulse xfrmr to protect the 555 variable rate/duty pulser electronics. FET switches may never reach the 5000amp pulse capability of the larger ceramic H2 thyratrons.

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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Steven Sesselmann »

If I recall correctly Doug was using two negatively biased grids, one was creating the ions the second one was fusing them. I tried explaining to Doug how he was creating slow ions, but I don't think he was listening, but in my view it is entirely plausible that his somewhat crude reactor was producing a lot of neutrons and I don't believe it had anything to do with oscillation.

Deuterons in your fusors don't fuse because they collide with high energy, on the contrary they merge because they have low energy, in much the same way as Dragon docks with the space station. It simply couldn't dock if it was going the opposite way at 15000 m/s, it needs to have the same speed and direction.

How do we create deuterons with low velocity?

We ionise them at low potential and this is exactly what happens in a fusor, a very small number of deuterium atoms give up their electrons near the grid (most don't) and it is these deuterons that move slowly enough to fuse.

Doug stacked the odds in his favour, he had a second grid and was making more of those slow neutrons which then drifted into the main grid.

Sorry to be blunt, but the whole idea of the triple product or Lawson criterion is plain wrong.

Ions lighter than Iron want to fuse, you only need to bring them together and let them dance at the same speed and direction. The Universe simply wouldn't be here if it was that hard to fuse nuclei.

Physics is broken in so many ways, much of what you all have learned and what you all believe is wrong, but if there ever was a group of people who could understand this it is precisely you guys, because unlike most theoretical physicists most of you have real hands on experience with high voltage, electrostatic potential and plasma, the stuff we are made of.

Electrostatic potential is all you need to make a Universe.

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http://www.gammaspectacular.com - Gamma Spectrometry Systems
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Sesselmann - Various papers and patents on RG
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Re: Fusor as an oscillator....A serious discussion

Post by Richard Hull »

For my money all you need is mass/gravity and electrostatic potential. Gravity, ( a potential energy) to move neutral mass to either collision or accretion which can separate charge in major events or solar accretions freeing up protons and electrons to spew out of solar masses. and from here electrostatic potential takes over with ensuing neutralizations creating photons and magnetism within closed current loops.

Outside of mass, only two potential energies are needed to get an kinematic universe. Light, magnetism and motion are by products of these two fixed potential energies. Via collisions and accretions potential energies are regenerated. The kinetic motion and charge separation is forever warranted. Light can cause kinematic motion on a small scale but ultimately bleeds its energy away in collisons which separate charge with a reduction in its energy and wavelength until it can no longer offer a pressure or charge separation within a kinematic universe. ("heat death")

For those few who do not believe gravity is a potential energy, that is why I noted "mass/gravity". Matter warps space to an infinite distance, though by the laws of "Warping or gravity", take your choice, it is only strong locally. Light obeys (gravitational/warped-space) beckoning's as does neutral and charged matter which it captures in orbital motion or impactful collision or accelerates with change of direction. Electromagnetic radiation is a force of forever lost and degraded energy created solely by the two potential energies.

Light and magnetism are created via electrostatic potential energy reactions within and about matter. This is often forced due to the external force of gravity via accretion or collision.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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