Pushing a CW Multiplier

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Joe Gayo
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Joe Gayo »

Here's the math for Half-Wave...

Code: Select all


loadCurrent = 0.01;(*Amperes*)
voltageCap = 11200;(*Volts*)
stageCap = 15*^-9;(*Farads*)
stageMaxHalf = 10;
freq = 40000;(*Hz*)

capNumHalf[ePk_] := (2*ePk)/voltageCap
stageCapAdj[ePk_] := stageCap/capNumHalf[ePk]

(*single stage, 2 diode and 2 cap*)
voltageDropHalf[n_, ePk_] := (loadCurrent/(6*freq* stageCapAdj[ePk]))*(4 n^3 + 3 n^2 - n)
voltageOutHalf[n_, ePk_] := 2*n*ePk - voltageDropHalf[n, ePk]
voltageRippleHalf[n_, ePk_] := (loadCurrent/(2*freq*stageCapAdj[ePk]))*(n^2 + n)

capNumTotalHalf[n_, ePk_] := 2*n*capNumHalf[ePk]

GraphicsGrid[{{
   Plot[voltageDropHalf[x, voltageCap/2], {x, 1, stageMaxHalf}, Frame -> True],
   Plot[voltageRippleHalf[x, voltageCap/2], {x, 1, stageMaxHalf}, Frame -> True]}, {
   Plot[voltageOutHalf[x, voltageCap/2], {x, 1, stageMaxHalf}, Frame -> True],
   Plot[capNumTotalHalf[x, voltageCap/2], {x, 1, stageMaxHalf},  Frame -> True]
   }}, ImageSize -> {800, 500}]

Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

So how is Glassman achieving their low ripple (0.1%), at 1mA (the multiplier speced for 100kV at 1mA) without going to much higher frequency?

Playing around with the numbers and a half wave calculator:
10 stages
0.015uF capacitors
100kV at 1mA
100khz

I get 477v of ripple.

I know I’m missing something here, just don’t know what it is :-)

-Matt
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Joe Gayo
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Joe Gayo »

You are ignoring the output capacitor that is integrated with the voltage divider for feedback.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Here’s the schematic of the Hv section. I see some 2000pF capacitors. Are those contributing much to the regulation?
423FC916-0AB4-40FA-AF75-9DC09564C520.jpeg
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Joe Gayo
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Joe Gayo »

In more ways than one ... but don't take my word for it ... figure it out and test
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Once I get a good driver for my HF transformer, I’ll try it out, testing frequency up to 100khz to see how the diodes and capacitors heat…

Insulation for 100kV is probably the harder part of this anyways.

This will be a back burner project since I already have a 40kV at 15mA supply.
John Futter
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by John Futter »

Don't forget that glassman do the ripple spec with the standard output coax connected a fairly big smoothing capacitor
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Hi John,

Where is this smoothing capacitor located? Externally? I don’t understand how they can give a ripple spec while using “extra” capacitance that the end user may or may not have…Either I’m just misunderstanding, or they are “fudging” things.
John Futter
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by John Futter »

It is the standard output cable ie coax 30pf per foot.
Now you work out the impedance at the operating freq at the top of the multiplier and shunt it with 300 pf of extra smoothing
ie not much ripple due to the high impedance and the cable capacitance --nothing said about regulation which is not that good but that is another whole lot of calculations
Rex Allers
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Rex Allers »

Hey Matt,

I was looking at that ebay listing. I thought it ended before the expected date. Did you make a "buy it now" that was accepted? Just curious.

Interesting to follow the discussions about the electronic analysis of the multiplier circuit.

I'm wondering where you found the schematic you shared. I've followed a lot of Glassman stuff but don't think I saw that one before.

Do you know, was this multiplier, like most Glassman stuff, intended for air operation (not oil imersed)?

Unrelated, I recently made a bid on an EK supply (600 W out) and surprised myself when it was accepted. I haven't tried to test it yet but I opened it up and was surprised to find the multiplier was also half wave. I have a few Glassman supplies and the others all had full wave multipliers.
Rex Allers
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Hi Rex,

I made an offer that was accepted. The seller had a link to a university website with the manual that this multiplier went in. It doesn’t look like it was designed for oil. I’ll have to take it apart so you guys can see the insides, they are pretty beefy!

My 40kV 15mA glassman was also a low bid surprise. I had to replace the mA scale, reverse the diodes and jumpers, but it works well other than that. 600W ought to be plenty, no?

I was sorry to see that 75kV negative Glassman go so high…

-Matt
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Here are some pictures of my 100kV @ 1mA Glassman multiplier, opened up. Pretty beefy looking!
54B74646-0D3A-4B44-A2BF-DBA415567568.jpeg
29AA8D18-5BCB-4F1A-9E1F-9517A774691F.jpeg
C5FC63EF-0A07-4339-8B0A-1E77C71F44E2.jpeg
ED9454D8-E002-41D2-8CF1-5BBEFD4B2974.jpeg
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I am familiar with simple voltage multiplier circuits but don't recognize some of those components. It appears to be full wave but the purpose of the resisters isn't clear to me. Could you explain a bit about each picture and for others (besides me) a bit on the function of the entire system, maybe? What frequency does it need and current/voltage?
In any case, thanks for sharing the images.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

While I am by no means an expert, I’m pretty sure it’s just a half wave multiplier…I wish it was full wave, more power!

I don’t know, for sure, what the series resistors (in series with the 0.015uF capacitors) are for, but would guess for current limit/protection.

The other resistors/capacitors are for voltage and current metering.

Don’t know the intended frequency either.

Once I have more time, and been successful with my 40kV supply, I’ll design/build a proper switching supply for this 100kV multiplier so that I can see how hard I can push it. I’m guessing that it is more capable than 1mA.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Thanks - guess the frequency matches most their std. commercial units.

I built a rather powerful 120 kV voltage multiplier (used very beefy door knob caps and high current diodes) and charged it a quarter way (I thought but either it was over charged or had a far higher upper limit - my calculations always errored on the under values.) When my 45 kV probe went full scale and I was still 5 cm from the unit - the field effects by the small discharge sphere (under oil!) convinced me it was far too dangerous to be near this unit. It is in an attic unused. Maybe someday (I tell myself) I'll have the nerve to try it again and with a better (safer) methodology to charge and test it.

So be careful at these very high voltages - as I learned (and can tell the tale) they get rather squirrelly and their behavior can be unpredictable.
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

I also have a homemade multiplier that I have put away…

It’s a 4 stage using 0.068uF 6kV capacitors in series (so 0.034uF and 12kV). Under oil. I need a safer setup as it is very hard to control and has gunshot level discharges when it bypasses whatever resistor I try to throw at it :-) A lot of spraying and then BANG!!! It’s also for a future path that I may take along this journey:-) For now, my 40kV glassman is the man.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Here is my old voltage multiplier without its vertical oil tank. If I recall, the diodes were 20 kV. I intended the unit for a corona field generator - not for current. Used the wrong caps but was rather ignorant of design of those devices. The driver was 3 kV, high current x-former (close to an amp) that also had a single stage multiplier of its own but no need for that section to be under oil.
Attachments
Eight stage using 15 kV door knob caps
Eight stage using 15 kV door knob caps
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

I have some 40kV 2nF doorknobs that I was going to use but decided to save them for a Marx generator.

How did this multiplier perform? Did you get some current/voltage measurements? I abandoned the idea of using the doorknobs when I saw how bad the voltage ripple was going to be at just a few mA.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I tried to measure it but the field generated was too intense - even with the multiplier's top electrode under oil (about a cm), my 45 kV probe pegged when it got to within 5 cm while still in air. Worse, the oil surface was moving towards the probe! I calculated the stack could hit (with a better HV supply) 120 kV - 140 kV safely (for the components, not necessarily me, apparently) and assumed it would max to 100 kV with the reduced supply I was using. However, the variac was only at half scale so I thought I was within the limits of the HV probe - apparently not. That was just too dangerous so I abandoned the linear accelerator and built a normal fusor.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Sounds like you need a good “dummy” load for the multiplier?

I’ve been meaning to put one together, but will save that for fusor 2 once I outgrow my 40kV Glassman.
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I considered it - oil filled plastic tubes with a center HV wire from the voltage multiplier tank all connected to a small sphere for corona discharge; then sense the field using my 45 kV probe. The issue was that I felt the voltage multiplier had far too much power to safely get near. Not sure how to create a dummy load that would work in a safe manner - a really long Giga-ohm and long mega-ohm resisters under oil to act as a voltage divider connected to the VM output? We are talking a 100 kV or more with a large surge current (low frequency). I haven't abandoned the approach or project completely (that is why its still assembled in its plexiglass tube/tank. ) Any ideas would be appreciated.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

I decided to revive this…

Instead of leaving this as a 10 stage designed for 100kV at 1mA, would it be worthwhile to convert to a 5 stage and double up/parallel on the capacitors?

I’d go from 10 stages, 0.015uF capacitors to 5 stages and 0.03uF capacitors. Running through https://www.extremeelectronics.co.uk/ca ... alculator/

I see less than 1600v dropped at 15mA (24w wasted). Seems reasonable, no? Capacitors are rated for 15kV and diodes are rated for 30kV. I should have no problem pushing 60-70kV?

100kV at 1mA doesn’t seem very useful and I’ll probably never tackle 100kV insulation.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Rich Feldman »

Sounds like you are planning to reconfigure a kit of high voltage C's and D's.

When you figure the stack's voltage drop under load, beware of calling it "lost power"
or, as mentioned by someone early in this thread, saying that the I * dV product heats the components.
It's reactive voltage drop, without power dissipation if the D's and C's are ideal.

Real D's and C's are not ideal.
The C's have ESR and dielectric loss which figures into their RF current ratings, as Tesla coilers know well.
The D's have forward dV when on, and reverse I while turning off.
But those are not, AFAIK, major contributors to the output resistance of practical voltage multipliers.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Pushing a CW Multiplier

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Rich,

That’s what I’m up to…Going from 10 stages to 5 stages frees up enough capacitors to double up. I’d simply remove the extra diodes and keep them as spares.

My thoughts are that 5 stages should be a lot less “lossy” than 10 stages and this multiplier wouldn’t need oil since it was designed for 100kV in air use.

Any reason this won’t work or be an exercise in futility? First glance, this looks like a nicely packaged up option to get a 60kV supply that can source some decent current, all without needing any oil. I might need to blow some air across the boards for cooling…
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