Testing a Turbo without controller

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Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

It works! It moved the blades in one direction only, then paused, then spun up. I could feel a strong breeze coming out of the outlet. Green light lit steady on the controller.

Any way to guess at the bearings health? There was no vibration or any weird noise. It’s pretty quiet.
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Finn Hammer
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Finn Hammer »

Matt,
Congratulations.
Put the turbo on the table without power connected.
Rotate the housing 30 degrees back and forth.
If the rotor stands still, the bearing is probably fine.
If the rotor follows the housing, it is shot.
I can find where to get it if you need it.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Hmm, I’m not sure I’m doing this right…

The rubber feet cause it to bounce around as I attempt to rotate. This causes the rotor to move around. So, it seems to stay in place and then move a bit as the rubber feet catch and release.

What all is involved if the bearing is bad?
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Finn Hammer
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Finn Hammer »

Matt,

This is a test to see if the friction in the bearing is excessive, which may or may not reveal a bad bearing.
Try to put the pump on a couple of polyethylene bags and some cardboard on top, that should reduce the friction between rubber feet and table.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Hi Finn,

Let’s assume the bearing is bad…Is there a replacement available other than the $700 one from ajvs?

If I recorded it running, could you tell by the sound if the bearing is bad?

Edit: Does the analog output pin give an rpm speed?

Thanks!
Matt
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Finn Hammer
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Finn Hammer »

Matt,

https://alpinebearing.com/ I got a bearing for around 100US$.
Yes, the analog out gives the speed, but you should read the manual about that.
I and others might be able to detect a bad bearing from a recording. Make a good one and post it to youtube.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Thanks, Finn. I’ll make a good video when I get home. Looking at your YouTube video, it appears to act, and sound, exactly the same. Maybe I got lucky? $100 isn’t too bad…Is there a part number that you have handy?

Edit: I see they have drop down menus that select the bearing for the turbo, nice.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Here is a video of it spinning up. You’ll have to excuse the psu fan that comes on in the beginning. I cut it off early as the rotor takes awhile to come to a stop and doesn’t make much noise that would be useful to hear.

https://youtu.be/7S7xj0gOLVA

Here is a video of me shifting it around with the power off.

https://youtube.com/shorts/NGx8Qpe9Q18?feature=share

-Matt
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Any ideas as to why this swaglok was used to replace the dn16 that would have originally been on this pump? I’m guessing this isn’t going to be a great way to connect this turbo to my foreline pump (it has Kf25 flanges).
0BADAB92-C7CC-4697-AD0D-3433A7A1DEFF.jpeg
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Richard Hull
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Richard Hull »

Wow! that is quite a strangle hold on the fore line.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

No kidding! Makes me envision trying to suck a milkshake through a coffee stirrer. I have no idea what they were using this pump for…

I haven’t been able to find a 1/4” BSPP to Kf25 that isn’t Chinese, so I may have to do a few conversions ($$$$$$) to get it to pair up with my Edwards e2m2 (Kf25).
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Finn Hammer
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Finn Hammer »

Matt,
You have a good pump, congratulations, it is a small gem.
The reason for the swagelock fitting could be, that the pump is content with 6-8mm tubing in the foreline.
This dimension gives an adequate flowrate at the pressure interval that the turbo's drag pump stage accepts.
I have an identical pump, and backed by a MVP 015-2 diaphragm pump, the foreline pressure is regulated between 4 and 10 torr by a 901P foreline pressure transducer.
With a one liter foreline buffer tank, this gives me 10-15 minutes of near silent bliss, with only the turbo running, only interrupted for a couple of minutes, by the MVP 015-2 roughing the line down to 4 torr again.
The manual states that 6 torr is the maxumum foreline pressure for H2, but this is the requirement for attaining 1 x 10E-7. But pumping at 20 Microns is another matter. I sat it to 10 torr by monitoring the current draw. at 10 torr it starts drawing more than 1.5A, and starts to heat up slightly, so as a safety measure, 10 torr is the limit.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Hi Finn,

Thanks for the reassurance! I got a second on these for a spare, but the bearing is definitely shot. Would you consider a $150 bearing to be worth it? I have $215 into the second one…

As for the swagelok, would you say that this pump is fine with this on it? Should I go about converting this swagelok to mate with my Kf25 or should I go another route? My Edwards e2m2 can get down to 4.5 microns in 15 mins….

Here is how I tested the Edwards pump ( I added in some various fittings to give it a better work out):
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Finn Hammer
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Finn Hammer »

Matt,

150$ seems reasonable, and probably better to stick with KF in the foreline.

Cheers , Finn Hammer
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Man o man is it hard to find kf/qf to bspp adapters!!!!

I found a Kf16 to bspp 1/4” from idealvac for $100 shipped, but will need a Kf16-Kf25 plus clamps, centering rings…

Dern…

Anyone have experience with mtixtl? They have a Kf25 to bspp 1/4” for $50 but want $30 to ship it…
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Richard Hull
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Richard Hull »

You are playing among the big boys and vacuum high rollers now. There are always work arounds if one's skills are well honed and welding, lathes and milling machines are at hand. If not, there is always the wallet.
Great vacuum surplus deals are out there where the super expensive stuff can be had for very little, but try and connect it to other surplus stuff you bought.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Dennis P Brown »

First off, Richard is absolutely correct - ebay has great deals on surplus and always a good place to check.

Secondly, that is a foreline connection and a small one, not high vac. So, not exactly a difficult connection to deal with - operating about 7 torr. As such, a simple vacuum hose connection would be so easy to install. Why use expensive couplings for such a moderate vacuum connections to your fore pump? Keep the hose short and use a reinforced vacuum hose (clear plastic.) That would work fine under those conditions. Then just a short piece of metal tubing (copper) with an acceptable threaded cap and ferrule (likely a hardware store - I've cross fitted to swagelok using those) for the turbo and a similar connection to the pump. For the pump, I'd use a hand drill, and drill a hole thru an KF end cap/blank (which I see you have.) Drill the hole so the tube fit's snuggly into the hole. Then using epoxy (again, we are talking torr level sealing here), glue the tube into KF cap hole. Then clamp the hose on to that metal pipe. Done, and everything except the KF cap/blank is cheap from a hardware store.

Of course, not as professional as standard vacuum stuff and if money isn't exactly an issue, then getting proper stuff makes more sense.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

I’m definitely in the deep end now! This project pretty much combined all of my passions, so no turning back. I don’t have any welding or machinery skills, so will have to pay up. Fortunately, it looks like I did well on the most $$$$ parts (pumps and psu), so can afford to pay new (I’ve scoured eBay) on a few others.

I’ll ditch the swagelok hutis and get the pricey kf to bspp connector for the sake of ease in connection. I’ve already got kf connectors and an 8” kf bellows tube to connect to the turbo.

Edit: Might it be okay to look into a swagelok to Kf25 converter?
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I'd just install a swagelok male end onto a teflon tube and connect that to a KF-25 that has the matching swagelok tube fitting.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

I decided to give MTI a try…They have exactly what I need (1/4 bspp to Kf25), so figured that the obscene shipping was worth having one less conversion (and possible leak) to do.

Once this arrives, I’ll be able to see what the Pfieffer can do once pumped down to 4-5 microns.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

Update: Got what I needed and everything seems to work well. I have an “issue”:

I have been just plugging/unplugging the turbo PSU when I want to turn it on/off. Today I decided to add a switch (apply 24vdc to pin 5 to turn it on). I am seeing that the turbo turns on and spins up to full rpms whether pin 5 is held high or not…All that I have connected, now, is ground and 24vdc.

I’d like to be able to switch this on/off with an actual switch so that I can leave it energized and be able to read the analog rpm output while it spins down (takes forever).

What am I missing?
Jerry Biehler
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Jerry Biehler »

There are couple versions of the controller that have different pinouts. Which model controller you have?, there are at least 4 different drives with different pinouts that have been used on these pumps. There is also a possibility that the controller has been programed to start up on power up. To change that you need a interface unit. For the 071 you can use the DCU-001 or DCU-100. The -100 had a 24v power supply built in that can run the pump, the -001 is just the display interface.

Before you get much further you need to change the oil cartridge, they are supposed to be changed yearly.
Matt_Gibson
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Matt_Gibson »

I’ve got the TC100. I had a second one of these and swapped the controller. The other controller works as expected so I’ll just stick with it for now.
Jerry Biehler
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Re: Testing a Turbo without controller

Post by Jerry Biehler »

Ahh, all of mine have the older TC600 variants. Each one has a different interface, lol. The controller connects to the head unit via RS485 half duplex, there is a command manual out there someplace so you could possibly get a usb to two-wire rs485 adapter and control it with that.
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