High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
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High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
So I’ve been reading a lot and getting more and more discouraged. While demo fusors seem pretty straightforward, functional ones aren’t not so straightforward (as far as what can provide the power requirements).
I know there’s many different ways to do this, but what is the popular way to go? X ray transformer? Multi thousand dollar lab supply?
It would seem I’m either going to need to find a 700lb x ray transformer or a $5k dc psu for a laboratory. Am I right, or is there a much easier path?
Edit: Would a 14.4Kv to 120v 0.5kVa pole transformer work? I can get these for next to nothing via my job
I know there’s many different ways to do this, but what is the popular way to go? X ray transformer? Multi thousand dollar lab supply?
It would seem I’m either going to need to find a 700lb x ray transformer or a $5k dc psu for a laboratory. Am I right, or is there a much easier path?
Edit: Would a 14.4Kv to 120v 0.5kVa pole transformer work? I can get these for next to nothing via my job
- Richard Hull
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
0.5kv pole transformer???? Sounds more like a 14.4kv potential transformer. You will find most potential transformers are center tap grounded like a neon sign Xfmr. 7.2kv per leg. (insulators to ground.)
All real fusor supplies must be ground referenced positive with negative high voltage as hot.
The best potential transformers are single ended 20kv single insulator with bottom plate grounded. A single voltage doubler with filtering will take that to over 45kv negative hot referenced to ground.
Richard Hull
All real fusor supplies must be ground referenced positive with negative high voltage as hot.
The best potential transformers are single ended 20kv single insulator with bottom plate grounded. A single voltage doubler with filtering will take that to over 45kv negative hot referenced to ground.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
- Mark Rowley
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Matt,
I'm a bit mystified about where you're getting info regarding the necessity of power supplies like you have listed. There are recent FAQ's here and as well as numerous posts about inexpensive flyback/high frequency supplies. In fact it's been a blazing hot topic over the past two years.
Can you link a mainstay FAQ or primary instruction from site management where the forum pushes folks in the direction of unobtanium 65yr old xray transformers or lab quality HV supplies? If these exist, I think they need to be changed.
Mark Rowley
I'm a bit mystified about where you're getting info regarding the necessity of power supplies like you have listed. There are recent FAQ's here and as well as numerous posts about inexpensive flyback/high frequency supplies. In fact it's been a blazing hot topic over the past two years.
Can you link a mainstay FAQ or primary instruction from site management where the forum pushes folks in the direction of unobtanium 65yr old xray transformers or lab quality HV supplies? If these exist, I think they need to be changed.
Mark Rowley
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Hi guys,
They are potential transformers meant to power up the controls for our switched capacitor banks. I haven’t been down to take a look at them, yet, but know there are both single and dual bushing, both rated for 14.4kV on the high side and 120v on the low side. I’m assuming they are pretty much a miniature version of a common 25kVA service transformer, so low impedance and risky.
As for the source of discouragement, it’s multiple sources, including here, as well as a few others spots on the net. I have seen pretty much everything other than massive X-ray transformers and glassman (or similar) being used.
If a high power flyback + CW multiplier will work, then I’m all for it I have 14 40kV 2200pF doorknob capacitors to start a CW multiplier with…
Edit: I’ll link a few spots where I found myself being discouraged away from “easier” routes.
They are potential transformers meant to power up the controls for our switched capacitor banks. I haven’t been down to take a look at them, yet, but know there are both single and dual bushing, both rated for 14.4kV on the high side and 120v on the low side. I’m assuming they are pretty much a miniature version of a common 25kVA service transformer, so low impedance and risky.
As for the source of discouragement, it’s multiple sources, including here, as well as a few others spots on the net. I have seen pretty much everything other than massive X-ray transformers and glassman (or similar) being used.
If a high power flyback + CW multiplier will work, then I’m all for it I have 14 40kV 2200pF doorknob capacitors to start a CW multiplier with…
Edit: I’ll link a few spots where I found myself being discouraged away from “easier” routes.
- Richard Hull
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
I have run several .5kav potential transformers during the tesla days to 2kw easily with zero damage. They are beasts! Do not go afoul of them due to their claimed .5kva rating.
They are relative light weights sealed, oiless in heavy rubber of epoxy all well under 100lbs. (luggable) In the early days during Teslathons we would sell up to 5 P.T.s at the fleamarkets in my yard. Our Junk yard in the 90's were full of them! We could not load them into the trucks quick enough. 7200, 12,000, 14,400 and 20,000 volters a few 36,000 volt giants as well. Ah, the old days.
Richard Hull
They are relative light weights sealed, oiless in heavy rubber of epoxy all well under 100lbs. (luggable) In the early days during Teslathons we would sell up to 5 P.T.s at the fleamarkets in my yard. Our Junk yard in the 90's were full of them! We could not load them into the trucks quick enough. 7200, 12,000, 14,400 and 20,000 volters a few 36,000 volt giants as well. Ah, the old days.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Hi Richard,
I may have to walk on down to the transformer yard then!
Would one of these with a CW multiplier and variac be a better route than trying to do a high power flyback setup?
I may have to walk on down to the transformer yard then!
Would one of these with a CW multiplier and variac be a better route than trying to do a high power flyback setup?
- Bob Reite
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Doug ran his "baby" Fusor with a 14,400 V to 120 V potential transformer going into a doubler. I will have it and the doubler for sale at HEAS.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
- Mark Rowley
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Approaching 20 years ago Richard gave me some excellent advice about the applicability of LDT's Pole Pigs, and similar for fusor use..... dont ever consider them. I'm glad I listened and ultimately went the path of HF driven transformers.
Check the FAQ's. Again, lots of easy to obtain and easy to build systems that are not too expensive.
Mark Rowley
Check the FAQ's. Again, lots of easy to obtain and easy to build systems that are not too expensive.
Mark Rowley
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Hi Matt,
You can find cheap Variable triac based ac voltage regulator components from Ali Express App.
Regarding the 10 K VAC or 15 K VAC, you can find them in any advertisement or neon shop.
I hop that i answered your queries.
Regards
Ali Bukhamseen
You can find cheap Variable triac based ac voltage regulator components from Ali Express App.
Regarding the 10 K VAC or 15 K VAC, you can find them in any advertisement or neon shop.
I hop that i answered your queries.
Regards
Ali Bukhamseen
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
I’ve decided to go the high frequency xfmr plus CW multiplier route. I’ve got some 40kV 2200pF doorknob capacitors that are looking for something to do:-)
Now I just need some quality diodes. Where does everyone get these? I see them all over eBay, but I’m hesitant to buy these Chinese diodes…
Now I just need some quality diodes. Where does everyone get these? I see them all over eBay, but I’m hesitant to buy these Chinese diodes…
- Finn Hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Matt,
2CL2FP 30kV, 100mA diodes work fine in my multipliers. They start to heat at frequencies above 40kHz, so stay below that.
These Chinese diodes are good quality, and the only option you have, unless you want to pay 20$ a piece for US made VMI diodes.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
2CL2FP 30kV, 100mA diodes work fine in my multipliers. They start to heat at frequencies above 40kHz, so stay below that.
These Chinese diodes are good quality, and the only option you have, unless you want to pay 20$ a piece for US made VMI diodes.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Matt,
You can fine many types of Rectifier Diodes from Ali Express.
Regards
Ali Hassan
You can fine many types of Rectifier Diodes from Ali Express.
Regards
Ali Hassan
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
I went with the 2cl2fm (20kV, 100mA, 100nS). I am running a CW VM calculator that I found: https://www.extremeelectronics.co.uk/ca ... alculator/
I see that the input current is much greater than 100mA. Does this need to be accounted for?
Edit: Should add that I chose 30mA as the load current.
I see that the input current is much greater than 100mA. Does this need to be accounted for?
Edit: Should add that I chose 30mA as the load current.
- Finn Hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Matt,
The CW multiplier over at Derek's site is a good one, for a first pass, but:
It is a single wave multiplier, and you will get a lot lower ripple by using a full wave multiplier. This is not just a theoretical point of view, because you are going to be dealing with quite some power. You could soon exeed a kW. In an ordinary circuit, the full wave rectifier is the standard, and so it should be in a high voltage multiplying rectifier for power applications.
Linear Technology has an electronic simulator called LTSpice, it is the industry standard for simulating electronic circuits, and the one I use to predict the multipliers that I make.
When you have drawn the circuit and run the simulation, You get access to voltage and current probes, ground referenced and differential, and the benefit of plotting the response on a time line, exactly like if you were measuring the finished product with an oscilloscope.
By assigning parametric values to circuit components , you can change the value of all the capacitors, or all the resistors in one instance, run simulations, and find out which values will give you what ripple, peak current in the diodes, short circuit behaviour and whatever scenario you want to investigate.
Using LTSpice will prepare you for a better understanding of the multiplier.
The time spent to master LTSpice will pay you back in dollars, when you build your multiplier, and you will rightly feel, that you own the circuit.
Below are dumps of the screen from LTSpice, with a 5-stage multiplier I have built.
Get your copy of LTSpice, build your schematic, start playing around with values and features, you will not regret it.
Hope this helps
Cheers, Finn Hammer
The CW multiplier over at Derek's site is a good one, for a first pass, but:
It is a single wave multiplier, and you will get a lot lower ripple by using a full wave multiplier. This is not just a theoretical point of view, because you are going to be dealing with quite some power. You could soon exeed a kW. In an ordinary circuit, the full wave rectifier is the standard, and so it should be in a high voltage multiplying rectifier for power applications.
Linear Technology has an electronic simulator called LTSpice, it is the industry standard for simulating electronic circuits, and the one I use to predict the multipliers that I make.
When you have drawn the circuit and run the simulation, You get access to voltage and current probes, ground referenced and differential, and the benefit of plotting the response on a time line, exactly like if you were measuring the finished product with an oscilloscope.
By assigning parametric values to circuit components , you can change the value of all the capacitors, or all the resistors in one instance, run simulations, and find out which values will give you what ripple, peak current in the diodes, short circuit behaviour and whatever scenario you want to investigate.
Using LTSpice will prepare you for a better understanding of the multiplier.
The time spent to master LTSpice will pay you back in dollars, when you build your multiplier, and you will rightly feel, that you own the circuit.
Below are dumps of the screen from LTSpice, with a 5-stage multiplier I have built.
Get your copy of LTSpice, build your schematic, start playing around with values and features, you will not regret it.
Hope this helps
Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Hi Finn,
I’ll check out LTSpice.
Is a full wave multiplier necessary, or will a half wave suffice? I’ve only got enough of these doorknob capacitors for a half wave.
-Matt
I’ll check out LTSpice.
Is a full wave multiplier necessary, or will a half wave suffice? I’ve only got enough of these doorknob capacitors for a half wave.
-Matt
- Finn Hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Matt,
Sure, a half wave will do.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
Sure, a half wave will do.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Finn,
From what I’ve read/understand, the benefit for going full wave vs half wave is essentially that I reduce ripple, needing less capacitance and lower frequency. Is that correct? In a nutshell…
I’m still waiting to get the LTspice downloaded (been on company travel), so still using the calculator. Half wave is requiring me to use larger capacitors and higher frequency to reduce ripple such that I don’t have to flash over my feed through just to get to a minimum voltage to the grid.
If this is correct, I’ll have to do a bit of cost-benefit here and price shopping capacitors/diodes to see which route gives me the best outcome.
From what I’ve read/understand, the benefit for going full wave vs half wave is essentially that I reduce ripple, needing less capacitance and lower frequency. Is that correct? In a nutshell…
I’m still waiting to get the LTspice downloaded (been on company travel), so still using the calculator. Half wave is requiring me to use larger capacitors and higher frequency to reduce ripple such that I don’t have to flash over my feed through just to get to a minimum voltage to the grid.
If this is correct, I’ll have to do a bit of cost-benefit here and price shopping capacitors/diodes to see which route gives me the best outcome.
- Richard Hull
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
The higher the frequency of any AC supplied to any multiplier, the better, assuming you can get that AC with some real power behind it and have the componenets that will work with it. 25khz is a great point used by many modern HV switchers that do not put too much of a strain on easily obtained components.
Older linear system working off the 60 hz mains directly preferred full wave as that is 120hz filtering and reduced the required capacitance needed for filtering. Stored energy in such high voltage systems is horrendous and any arcing to ground will literally tear stuff up and vaporize the surrounding gear.
Richard Hull
Older linear system working off the 60 hz mains directly preferred full wave as that is 120hz filtering and reduced the required capacitance needed for filtering. Stored energy in such high voltage systems is horrendous and any arcing to ground will literally tear stuff up and vaporize the surrounding gear.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
- Finn Hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Matt,
I second what Richard wrote.
The frequency is limited by the diodes, the chinese ones, where 35kHz seems to be the maximum frequency. Go beyond that, and they overheat and fail.
As far as capacitors go, I have had good results with polypropylene film capacitors.
Based on experiences from the tesla coiling community some 15 years ago, it turned out that this kind of capacitors, with their inherent self healing properties, can be safely overvolted (to a point, of course), and therefore become financially attractive.
1600VDC capacitors can handle up to the double in AC, even at high currents, so in a fusor multiplier, they may well even last indefinitely.
Abusing capacitors like that is not for a consumer product, but in a hobby environment, it is your own choise. Polypropylenes die fast from overcurrent, overvoltage taken to an extreme will cause the capacitance to fall at a steady rate.
Forgive me, but I could talk about capacitors for hours.
You can read somethng about those caps, here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13790&hilit=Finn+hammer
I second what Richard wrote.
The frequency is limited by the diodes, the chinese ones, where 35kHz seems to be the maximum frequency. Go beyond that, and they overheat and fail.
As far as capacitors go, I have had good results with polypropylene film capacitors.
Based on experiences from the tesla coiling community some 15 years ago, it turned out that this kind of capacitors, with their inherent self healing properties, can be safely overvolted (to a point, of course), and therefore become financially attractive.
1600VDC capacitors can handle up to the double in AC, even at high currents, so in a fusor multiplier, they may well even last indefinitely.
Abusing capacitors like that is not for a consumer product, but in a hobby environment, it is your own choise. Polypropylenes die fast from overcurrent, overvoltage taken to an extreme will cause the capacitance to fall at a steady rate.
Forgive me, but I could talk about capacitors for hours.
You can read somethng about those caps, here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13790&hilit=Finn+hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Finn and Richard, thanks for the reply!
I remember the Cde942c was the go to for Tesla coils (my former days were building Tesla coils and solid state lasers)
I am looking at the WIMA fkp1 6000v capacitors. 3 in series should be good for 18kV. Any experience with these type?
I know the VMI diodes cost a hell of a lot more (a bit less on eBay), but would they be good for an actual 100nS?
-Matt
I remember the Cde942c was the go to for Tesla coils (my former days were building Tesla coils and solid state lasers)
I am looking at the WIMA fkp1 6000v capacitors. 3 in series should be good for 18kV. Any experience with these type?
I know the VMI diodes cost a hell of a lot more (a bit less on eBay), but would they be good for an actual 100nS?
-Matt
- Finn Hammer
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Re: High Voltage PSU for functional Fusor
Matt,
I asked VMI about a max. Frequency, they said 70kHz.
At the time, I was obsessed with the idea of making a supply at 100kHz, like a Spellman I once had access to, so I decided to go with the chinese diodes, and lower the frequency accordingly.
There are issues with the magnetics, which point in the same direction, and in the end, I just wanted something that could run cool enough without oil, so I ended at 33kHz as a good compromize.
Cheers, Finn Hammer
I asked VMI about a max. Frequency, they said 70kHz.
At the time, I was obsessed with the idea of making a supply at 100kHz, like a Spellman I once had access to, so I decided to go with the chinese diodes, and lower the frequency accordingly.
There are issues with the magnetics, which point in the same direction, and in the end, I just wanted something that could run cool enough without oil, so I ended at 33kHz as a good compromize.
Cheers, Finn Hammer