FAQ: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

If you have a question about this topic, the answer is probably in here!
Andrew Seltzman
Posts: 815
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:02 pm
Real name: Andrew Seltzman
Contact:

Re: Deuterium Source Operational

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

I suppose it would work, though drierite would be better. You could probably get it on line, it's fairly common.


Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
AllenWallace
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2002 12:50 pm
Real name:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by AllenWallace »

Andrew,

How do you regulate the D2 volume? It seems to me that if you suck too much D2 into the fusor, you will suck the D20 into the drieite.

Allen Wallace
Andrew Seltzman
Posts: 815
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:02 pm
Real name: Andrew Seltzman
Contact:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

The ultra fine needle valve at the bottom can be used to regulate deuterium flow. You can adjust the valve such that the production and consumption rates match. This is easier than one might suspect; the needle valve can be adjusted so that the production rate exceeds the consumption rate. Due to the design of the inner electrode, the produced deuterium will displace the heavy water until it is not in contact with the central electrode, stopping electrolysis. The level will continue to oscillate between touching and not touching the bottom electrode, and the system becomes self regulating. This can be varied for slightly higher rates as the conductivity of the system increases as the D2O climbs up the column, thus increasing production rate.

Andrew Seltzman
www.tftechnologies.org
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Richard Hull »

This seems like a shining example of how to skirt the bottled gas issue.

I just wish that an RGA could be hooked up and look at the D2O mass number in the fusor chamber. I can't help but think that some D2O is getting through. This would probably not be a problem if it were on a ratio of one D2O molecule for every 50 D2 molecules.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Roberto Ferrari
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:21 pm
Real name: Roberto Ferrari
Location: Argentina
Contact:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Richard,
When those doubts arose, is time to think about a palladium tube or membrane. Just will let go through only the D. Really super dry!
Roberto
User avatar
Adam Szendrey
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
Real name: Adam Szendrey
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Right now, i can only afford D2O. 25 ml of the stuff will give me about 30 l of D2 (theoretically). That's pretty sweet. 25 ml costs somewhere around 40-50 euros in germany.
Andrew, how efficiently does this system extract D2 from D2O. What i would like to know, is how much of x liters of theoretically avaliable gas can be extracted (for example, what percentage of that 30 liters can be extracted)?

Adam
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Richard Hull »

To Roberto and Adam...........

A Pd membrane would be the best of all worlds, but barring obtaining an ultra thin section, even the thinnest foils would require some time for the D2 to, more or less, osmos through. Pressure differentials would, of course, drive the process.

The efficiency of D2 separation would be rather high in the electrolysis process, virtually 100%, provided the electrolye is chosen with great care, which I have mentioned in other posts. The loss of D2 to chemical combinations would be the sole loss of D2 in a D2O electrolysis setup. The platinum wire obviates metalo-hydrides to some degree, though platinum is capable of picking up hydrogen and an electrolyte like D2SO4 would avoid other issues, though the quantity of electrolyte is small even with hydrogenated electrolytes. The Sodium Carbonate would do fine with minimal combination.

As shown, I would think that there is little loss in this process. If deuterating of the Pt electrodes occurs, it will load up to a point and then cease once stuffed full allowing the freshly produced D2 to proceed out of the system. This could be checked after a period of operation by testing the pliability of the Pt. If it is stiff, then D embrittlement is apparent, indicating some loading.

The D20 used would have to be at minimum 98% pure. Some sort of statement to this effect with an analysis sheet would be nice. United Nuclear's product is of unstated purity, I think.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
User avatar
Adam Szendrey
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
Real name: Adam Szendrey
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Adam Szendrey »

United Nuclear sells 99.999 % pure D2O (at least they claim that, but i guess there's no reason not to trust them).
100 mg (should be about 91 ml) costs $65. I aksed them a while back if they can ship D2O abroad (to Hungary), and they told be they can. 91 ml of D2O contains almost 110 liters of D2. I may order D2O from them, as here, in europe D2O is considerably more expensive.
See the page below:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/chem.htm

It's interesting to note what is written under the uses of heavy water:
"Easily make pure Deuterium gas for Fusor experiments, etc."
:)

Adam
Frank Sanns
Site Admin
Posts: 2119
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:26 pm
Real name: Frank Sanns

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Frank Sanns »

Actually, the United Nuclear heavy water is STATED to be Ultrex 99.999%. I just have not seen it CONFIRMED anywhere!

It does sink though. My curiousity got the best of me as I was not sure that what I bought was anything other than tap water. Having sufficient quantity to experiment, I made a small (~2 cm^3) ice cube out of the UN D2O. I also cooled some distilled water down until it was starting to freeze at the edges. This gave me the longest "hang time" of the cube before it melted. I put the D2O cube in there and it went straight to the bottom. This is not an certified analysis but it sure is at least half D2O.

Frank S.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
User avatar
Adam Szendrey
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
Real name: Adam Szendrey
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Adam Szendrey »

It would be rather unfortunate if they would be selling some low purity stuff.I'm hoping they wouldn't try to sell some junk, as with proper equippment the purtity can be verified. If someone buys the stuff, and has the required equippment to test it, and finds that it's low purity, UN would get into a lot of trouble i think.... They would loose their credit, and a lot of costumers. D2O is not something that a lot of people buy, so it doesn't worth the risk to fake it (at least i hope).
Maybe they can proove the purity, if someone writes an email and asks them to.

Adam
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Richard Hull »

I was given to understand at one time that they were making their own D20 via electrolysis, which would make it of extremely low grade, probably 75%.

However, it they are buying it by the drum from a reputable chemical firm with proper analysis sheets tagged to the lot and just re-bottling the stuff, then that is a totally different matter.


If I were remarketing something like this I would send along a copy of my order for the large lot drum (my cost covered up) along with a copy of the lot numbered analysis sheet from my supplier source. (it is common for chemical firms to supply lot analysis sheets with product.) This would instill a lot of buyer confidence in my re-marketed, re-packaged product. This is especially important when selling an isotopic form of water!

Frank's test helped a bit. It ain't tap water.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Andrew Seltzman
Posts: 815
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:02 pm
Real name: Andrew Seltzman
Contact:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

I just bought 100g of heavy water on the web from a supplier that distributes NMR grade deuterated solvents. It cost $55, $10 less then Uniter Nuclear. It is 99.9%, was very profesionaly packed, and came with a MSDS. For larger quantities UN is not the best place to buy from (price wise).

Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
Roberto Ferrari
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:21 pm
Real name: Roberto Ferrari
Location: Argentina
Contact:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Richard,
Yo are right, Pd membrane will take a time to let the D2 go through.
An H2 commercial generator, with a cell of 6 Pd tubes -very thin walls- each with approx. 1000 mm2 active surface (approx. 120 mm long x 3 mm diam) can supply continuously 150 ml/min.
So, a single tube can approx. supply 25 ml/min. If not enough to feed the fusor, a modified Andrew's generator with a Pd tube can be run for an hour prior to use and the D2 collected in a small intermediary reservoir, in order to feed the fusor for a time.
Roberto
User avatar
Adam Szendrey
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
Real name: Adam Szendrey
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Adam Szendrey »

What's the name of the supplier?
User avatar
Adam Szendrey
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
Real name: Adam Szendrey
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Adam Szendrey »

I may have found them:

[color=#FF0000]admin note 160322[/color] : 11+ year old dead link to wilmad-labglass-dot-com has been deleted.

Somebody let us know if you an find another source of heavy water. [/color]


They list 100 g of 99.9 % D2O for $55.
I have sent an email to their regional representative, asking if this item is avaliable in this region.
Thanks for pointing out that there are cheaper sources for D2O, Andrew.

Adam
Andrew Seltzman
Posts: 815
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:02 pm
Real name: Andrew Seltzman
Contact:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

Yes, wilmad labglass was the supplier.

Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Richard Hull »

I assume the ml/min figures are for STP. If it is then 25ml/min STP would be more than enough.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Roberto Ferrari
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:21 pm
Real name: Roberto Ferrari
Location: Argentina
Contact:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Roberto Ferrari »

Yes Richard,

you are right, at STP conditions.

Roberto
User avatar
Adam Szendrey
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:36 pm
Real name: Adam Szendrey
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Hi guys,

I have sent an email a while back to UN, to ask them if they can provide a certificate.
Here is their reply:

"Yes, we can provide certification un request.
We supply Heavy Water to most Universities and they also require purity certification and ACS traceable certificates for their analysis and work.
Certification is available for any of out Reagent chemicals."

I haven't got a reply from Wilmad-Labglass yet.

Adam
Starfire
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 2:14 pm
Real name:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Starfire »

Aldrich will supply Deuterium Oxide Ultra - D at 99.999 atom % isotopic purity certified ( cat ref 61.340-1 ) -- $120 for 10g

But Richard is correct - Palladium foil is the best drying filter/barrier but it takes a very long time for the D2 to permeate. It works better with a heated foil. Was used in;-

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=7715#p55674
image one.

The pallidium foil is the sealed filter in photo on the left calibrated electrolyliser. This calibrated tube ( 1ml syringe ) allowed gas transfer volume to be measured. The Oxygen side recorded the total O produced and was proportional to the total gas ratio at one bar.
The amount of gas needed for a Fusor is tiny
Attachments
Electrolyliser2x.jpg
Andrew Seltzman
Posts: 815
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:02 pm
Real name: Andrew Seltzman
Contact:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Andrew Seltzman »

Looks nice. How fast did the D2 penatrate the foil? how thin was the foil?

Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
Andrew Seltzman
www.rtftechnologies.org
Starfire
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2001 2:14 pm
Real name:

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Starfire »

sorry for delay Andrew - I only get on at week ends now. Foil was hot rolled down from a 0.1 mm foil to about 0.005 and Indium soldered on to a SS ring washer then sealed in the plastic tube, but it took forever for the D2 to permeate the foil at 1 bar - the D2O had a bit of Sodium added and was electrolyzed at atmosphere. It would be better with the foil hot and the pressure higher - but how? This was a high school project and on a very small budget.

see Richards post -
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2220#p11730
and followups

also of interest is Franks ;-
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2440#p11950
User avatar
Richard Hull
Moderator
Posts: 14991
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
Real name: Richard Hull

Re: Heavy Water Electrolysis Deuterium Source

Post by Richard Hull »

I upgraded this superb thread to a "FAQ".

Now a Simple search of "FAQ" in "titles" only within this forum will bring up this prime discussion on heavy water electrolysis.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Post Reply

Return to “FAQs: Fusor Construction & Operation”