Archived - European Fusor

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Werner Engel
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Archived - European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

This is the actual status of the preparation for my Fusor Experiment:

4) On the left you see the Turbo Control Unit Pfeiffer DCU. It generates up to 1500 Hz to drive the Turbo-Pump. On the backside it has a RS485 Interface which will be connected to my LABVIEW PC showing actual current (and therefore gas load). I think I will try to close the leaking valve if the gas load goes to high – during massive changes of pressure values. But this is not working yet.
On the right you see the Pfeiffer MFC unit. It’s connected to the vacuum gauge on one side and to the electric leak valve on the other side. The serial interface will be used to do automated changes in vacuum – to measure focus behavior in different gas concentrations.
It works very well. You can set a new value (say 5,0 x 10-4 mbar) and a few minutes later it arrives at the programmed vacuum!

3) This shows the 2 stage Pfeiffer Rotary Vane Pump used as backing pump. It does 8 m³/h and easily reaches 10-3 mbar and sometimes down to 10-4 mbar. Behind the rubber hose (which goes to the exhaust) there is a small manual venting valve which is used at the end of the venting process to go from 1mbar to atmospheric pressure. Air is only used as a venting gas for the roughing pump side as it contains too much water.
The fittings are all from VACOM (a German company which is quite cheap and fast in delivery) – designed in DN16. DN16 is good enough for these vacuum regions. The Turbo side uses DN63 and DN40 (with copper and Viton gaskets) – some in CF and some in KF. I bought the turbo in CF so I can use it for other purposes too and resell it easier – if wanted.
The mechanical vacuum gauge is used to check if the chamber is ready to be opened – as sometimes the pirani cold cathode gauge shows >1000mbar even it hast not reached 300 mbar!! Don’t know why. This is still under investigation.

2) This metal hose was first used as a connection between the chamber and the Turbo. It is DN40 with CF on both sides. Unfortunately this was no good idea: The hose was reducing its length (of course) and almost destroyed everything as it pulled the turbo and the chamber very close together, bending the mounting braces. I will never use such large metal hoses again!!

1) The HV-Feedthrough: DN 100 CF, 70 kV, 6.5A. A massive piece (6,5 kg) of vacuum equipment!
Also from VACOM.

During the last tests I went down to 10-6 mbar without any problem. I used Helium for venting and also to leak gas inside through the MFC. Next step will be high-voltage – where I go a very different way than everyone else in the forum. We will see …
Werner

PS: Sorry for the reverse order of the Picture, but inserting files did not work as I thought.
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Richard Hull
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Re: European Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Nice beginning. I notice the lab aluminum framework. Not cheap, but if on hand, a real good framework. I found a bunch of that custom material at a local junk yard and purchased it at the pound scrap rate. I may use some of it on a future project in my lab. All the best on your effort.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Werner Engel
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Re: European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

The aluminium framework consists of REXROTH components. I constructed it myself and had it prepared by a local company.
Rexroth also provides a free CAD application which you can use to construct your own thing - whatever it looks like: http://www.boschrexroth.com/en/xc/produ ... tpro/index

I like it very much because I can change everything and extend the whole thing on demand. It is extremly stable and can carry a few hundred kg!!

One thing which should be mentioned:
I found it extremly difficult to choose the right material, devices, fittings, ways of construction, valves for the fusor out of the gigantic pool of manufacturers. E.g.: If you ask a vacuum company for a turbo-pump, you have to know what you need. Deciding which parameter is necessary and which is optional is the hard work! And investing 5.000$ in the wrong pump was not the kind of investment I liked! Or does it have be a turbo which costs 45.000$? On the other side, this was the challange I liked most!
I also asked some very skilled professionals (researchers from universities, quantum physicist, nuclear physicist, ...) and nobody new everything.
The worst issue for me was choosing the right fitting system: KF, ISO, ISO-KF, CF, QCF, ...
WIthout knowing the exact pros/cons from every system, this was very hard. Everyone I asked preferred a different system and I didn't know how the parts really looked like! Not mentioning the inch/centimeter and compatibility issue.
Or the vacuum gauge: I had to read every datasheet 3x. Compare the product to a similar one from an other manufacturer. But which features do you have to compare? So I had to learn the theory behind the different measuring methodes - also from books which are not at the same actuality as the products sold today.
But - its still a lot of fun!!

Werner
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Andrew Robinson
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Re: European Fusor

Post by Andrew Robinson »

Richard Hull wrote:Nice beginning. I notice the lab aluminum framework. Not cheap, but if on hand, a real good framework. I found a bunch of that custom material at a local junk yard and purchased it at the pound scrap rate. I may use some of it on a future project in my lab. All the best on your effort.
Werner Engel wrote:The aluminium framework consists of REXROTH components. I constructed it myself and had it prepared by a local company.
Rexroth also provides a free CAD application which you can use to construct your own thing
You can say that again Richard! I have a love hate relationship with my aluminum extrusion of choice (80/20). I have used it for years and at times it is unbearably expensive, but I can never bring myself to not use it. I highly encourage you to give it a try in the future. It is extremely helpful.

If you can stomach the license, SolidWorks is also very VERY useful as a CAD platform. Some will disagree, but I feel it is the most intuitive and powerful CAD platform out there in use today. Most newer equipment and parts from reputable engineering firms will have SolidWorks part files on hand to aid in your assemblies. For example, almost all of McMasters selection is available for download as a sldprt file. Other resources include http://www.3dcontentcentral.com/ where you can find CAD files for MANY vendors including 80/20. Everything I design is first done in CAD including mechanical and thermal simulations where necessary. I LOVE SOLIDWORKS!

Nice work too Werner! Looking forward to see how things turn out for you!
80/20
80/20
More 80/20
More 80/20
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Philipp W
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Re: European Fusor

Post by Philipp W »

Very clean and professional setup, Werner!

That feedthrough of yours is truly massive! Do you already have plans for the vacuum chamber; are you going for a standard spherical setup or a larger cylindrical tank (probably more flexible and necessary (??) to accommodate the feedthrough)?

Can't wait to see the thing in real life ;)

Philipp
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Re: European Fusor

Post by Noah C Hoppis »

I can completely back up Andrew's assessment of solidworks if you can afford it or get through a local school it is the best (IMHO) CAD software out there!
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Werner Engel
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Re: European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

This is the Turbo pump. A brand new Pfeiffer HiPace 80, with 48 Liters/sec for hydrogen.
It can reach 5x10e-10 mbar - connected via the DN 63 CF-F flange.
The external aircooling is not realy used as the gasload ist not so high.

I reduced to KF40 using a elbow valve which works fine for this use.
The metall pipes (KF40) are stable and do not move anymore (like the flexible steel hose).

Please be carefull: The turbo needs to be mounted much tighter as shown on the picture, as torques round 600Nm can be measured during a crash.

Regarding the Rexroth aluminium bars: I found them used at some experiments I made durnig my visits at CERN, DESY and the Tokamak in Garching.
If you are interested in such photos, please reply.
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

The 70 kV HV feedthrough in it's parking position, resting on the ISO-KF flange. I used a Lab-Boy with a hole in the top-table to let the electrode go through the table.
It will be connected to the DN100 ISO-KF doublecross shortly!
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Andrew Robinson »

Beautiful insulator. Ha! You really do have to be an old HV guy (or possibly fusor guy) to get exited like that over insulators. Don't let it topple over :X What was the price point on that guy? Looks like they're not listed online. I was originally headed down that same path. Looks like I'll be pulling some old Tesla strings though and constructing my own this time around. Still curious on price though as a backup option. Excellent work! Coming together really nice.
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

I bought it about a year ago for about 1.400€.
They still have it on stock, you have to ask for it. The 100kV is about 3250€.

BR,
Werner
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Andrew Robinson »

About what I expected. Thanks!
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Werner Engel
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

Today we started to stick the first parts together.
The doublecross is DN100.
The windows are not AR coated yet, but will be ...
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Wow! This is gonna' be a big boy! Wish I had a piece of chalk. ( there is a back story) As I am also a model railroader there is a real story about the Union Pacific Railroad ordering the largest locomotive ever made in a fleet of these steam locos in the early 40's. As the first one of these million pound + locos rolled out of the builder shops, some unknown worker took a big piece of white chalk and wrote in big foot tall letters on the front smoke box cover... "Big Boy"... The name stuck and that group or class of engines acquired that worker's moniker for all time.

This fusor is truly going to be a big boy among fusors, once it is lit up!
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Adam Szendrey »

Wow, that is a beautiful, big, clean system you are building there! Love the large windows. Can't wait to see it in action! Just checked out your introduction, nice to see someone so close to me (I live near Budapest), building such a wonderful fusor. Maybe one day I'll hop over and take a look :). Eventually we'll have fusion cons around here! (unless I missed it and there already are happening, which is perfectly possible considering how I've been out of the loop!)

Ps.: That HV feedthrough with the massive insulator made me drool!
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Frank Sanns »

Very nice but I would need two insulators. $$$$$ :-(
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Werner Engel
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Re: Archived - European Fusor - HV-PS

Post by Werner Engel »

Hi friends of the high voltage!

My new HV-transformator just arrived!

Here some data:
30 kV
2 kVA !!!
about 60 kg of material ;-)
including a thermal circuit breaker adjusted to 75°C.

This will create about 42 kV DC at approx. 50 mA - I love it!
If it's not enough, I can add another one reaching 84 kV - but this seems to be toooo much!
Four of them would reach the voltage for p-B11 :-)))
No, I'm kidding!

I will test it this Friday - whish me luck.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Rich Feldman »

Good luck with that transformer, Werner. :-)

Did you have it made to order, or was it designed for something else?
What are all those primary taps for?
Will it be used under oil?
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Werner Engel
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

OK, I had bad luck!

Unfortunatly, after just reaching 18 kV, we had an arc between the HV coil and the core.
End of the story - I will try to let it repair on monday.
Isolation has to be improved or I have to submerge it in oil - what I tried to avoid.

Here you see two pics showing the corona discharge close to the rectifier diodes (in the darker picture) and the whole setup (built together with Philipp).

@ Rich: The primary taps are to pre-adjust voltage.
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

OK, here is the solution to my last problem:
The Isolation at the bottom of the HV coils was optimized with this black isolation resin.

Should work now!
I'll keep you informed.
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

Hi friends of fusion!

Within the next weeks I will travel to ITER.org together with some Austrian scientists. We will have a Special tour and also meet some of the guys working at the superconducting components. Pictures will be available in October.

Her ist an actual picture of my new CF double cross ready to be connected to the turbo. The old Iso-KF thing has to go ...


BR,
Werner

PS: Please also have a look at my invitation to the "European Fusor Meeting" viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11622
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Why are you reluctant to place that transformer under oil? It would certainly be safer - both for you and the x-former! Especially if you intend to get up to 40 kV; above 25 kV electrical items get flaky (they can short to places/distances that normally one would not guess) and oil can provide a lot of safety margin in any system. The oil also allows less chance to have the high voltage jump to something that you are near or touching that would normally be safe ... .

Those diodes look extremely under rated for any significant current (I use 1 amp, 20 kV diodes (two in series, of course) and these costed me $2 each.)

Your chamber and high voltage feed-thru are impressive.

I see in the image those diodes are shorting to the mounting plate (wood?) You need to make a proper mount and seriously consider placing the diodes under oil (besides electrical isolation, provides improved cooling.) I mount my diodes on a plexiglass plate. I use ceramic stand offs to hold the plate up (to increase insulation) in a plastic tub that I fill with oil. The diode assembles lift out easily. Besides cooling the oil makes corona issues go away. I also save money because the wiring between diodes is just normal low voltage wire (110 v stuff); I only use the expensive 40 kV stuff outside the oil.

I use inexpensive synthetic motor oil (a research paper on dielectric properties showed that this oil was equal/superior for these applications so I decided to try it) and it works extremely well up to 60 kV (so far, max voltage I have tested to date.)
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Werner Engel »

@ Dennis:
Using oil was an idea – but I try to stay dry as long as possible. The transformer has about 40 kg – so moving it and building a hull around it seems not to be that easy. I once thought about using SF6 instead of oil – but it was not possible to get it anymore.

Regarding the diodes: I already put them in epoxy – works perfect.
More currents seems a good idea to me. Which diodes did you use and where did you get them from?
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Re: Archived - European Fusor

Post by Dennis P Brown »

I got them on ebay and there from china. They really do a good job and are a steal considering. They are rated to 20 kV and an amp but I hardly trust that so I use two for 32 kV and my system has a max surge of 100 - 200 ma.) They will handle 100 millamps without an issue and could do a good bit higher I bet - as for 2 amp, well, please but they are really big.

I like oil because it is fool proof (mostly) and just letting the item drain over night cleans most off. Then a bit of alcohol and a cloth does the trick. Using cheap synthetic motor oil (same or superior performance to x-former oil) makes even large systems easy and cheap to immerse.


OK, found them:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-8-10pcs-PRH ... 37BR1E7QgA

These are a bargain at under $2 each! They really do work nicely (have never lost even one for any reason) - of course, just never use them near their highest rated voltage! If you exceed 16 kV, do use two in series. At these prices, can't go wrong so get extra in case you decide to do more systems (shipping and waiting for them is a hassle) - I have a lot of extras for those reasons. Their direction is as marked on their sides.
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