Archived - First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

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RobertTubbs
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by RobertTubbs » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:41 pm

If that website was indicative of anything it's indicative of the kind of integrity he holds himself to. I would from this not only question his claims here, but those of his original inception to the neutron club.

I have nothing more to effectively add.

-RT

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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by Jim Kovalchick » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:04 am

I'm with Carl. Let's help the young man with scientific challenge worthy of the traditions of this board. Uniformly applying that approach to all but the obvious will resolve successes and failures alike.

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Carl Willis
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by Carl Willis » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:03 am

The website means very little. It should not be a focus of further discussion, and I don't find it to be a relevant exhibit to the prosecution of any legitimate point-of-view in the matter at hand (which remains just routine interest in more details about the small fusor). Perhaps the site's quite old. Perhaps Tanner got embarrassed by it and deleted it. Perhaps it served a limited role, e.g. an old class assignment in e-commerce or somesuch, or a placeholder for later additions. Lots of ordinary possibilities could excuse what some people find to be its weaknesses. If Tanner had advertised that URL here as a source of information, then it would be relevant to the discussion. But he didn't, and it's not.

Eyes on the ball!

-Carl
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TannerOates
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by TannerOates » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:44 am

Well after a day of being away from my computer not checking my thread on the Fusor forums, I have to say that I am disappointed. I see that my admittedly archaic and forgotten development website has been cited and used against me for relentless psychological and moral attacks. I simply experimented with a website design ***FOR A SCHOOL PROJECT*** and now have become victim to attacks on my mental aptitude and moral character from my people I have an immense amount of respect for. Since I was away for the majority of the day, allow me to adress each individual post. Let it be noted that in my opinion when peers and adults makes such unprofessional and maligning comments to a minor there should be moderation from an admin on the website, but I do agree that each of you are entitled to your own opinions regardless how deeply offensive they are to me.

1.) Richard Hull: The glassman I own can most defiantly produce -45kv@7.5ma, and have used this EXACT power supply in my first claim to fusion about 11months ago. This claim received no question about my PSU. That being said, I do believe it is unfair to say that I have "zero backgrounding in operating a real or normal fusor while equipped with no suitable insturmentation beyond an ill-understood, untested, neutron counting system". I say this because you have seen, posted, and confirmed my last experiment. I do recall a photo being posted of "the grid in action", I do even recall you posting in that very same thread. The grid is made of Tungsten wire. I am not trying to enter the neutron club simply because of the fact I am already in it. I am currently working on an electronic readout for the glassman ml series that will give precise readings of input voltages. There is absolutely input insulation as there is with every other fusor on this forum. Again, as I said in the first post, I am posting a full write up on the design of the reactor (yes even the power supply). I am trying my best to find a vacuum gauge. Once again, I beg your patience.

2.) Robert Tubbs: I appreciate your ability to be understanding of a 16 year old's website for a school project. I was humiliated when you found it, so I took it down quickly in a now futile attempt to keep the thread topic professional. Quickly, you reposted a copied version of the website for all to see. I did send you an email attempting to sort things out in a less destructive way, but to no avail. Then you used this to judge my personal integrity as a person. I can now only thank you for what you have done, I now realize my mistake in leaving the site up after the school assignment was completed, and I am deeply sorry if I have offended you an in way.

3.) Chris Bradley: Thank you for your best wishes on my endeavors, rest assured that I am taking all questions into account and will be answered in my coming project break down.

4.) Carl Willis: Carl, thank you for your extremely constructive post! Throughout the few years I have been browsing these forums, not once have I found any information in your threads by any means questionable. I will include all relavant information in the coming project description. Thank you again.

5.) Jake J Hecla: I do not understand how so many get hung up on the trivial aspect of my power supply. The simple answer for this is, I lead the output of the PSU to the input of the feedthrough for the chamber, the exact same way every other Fusor on this forum operates. Your comments about my school project are much appreciated and are very useful to my personal growth.

6.) Rich Feldman: Well, besides for your post having absolutely nothing to do with Fusion, Fusors, or science in general and is simply a direct attack on a school web design project there is not much I can say to you. I am sure that many would find your comment pertaining to the assumption I have a learning disability offensive. So please take steps to mitigate that.



Thank you for all of your remarkably professional comments and patience.

Daniel Firth
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by Daniel Firth » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:33 am

Do you still have the bubble detector? If I remember correctly, they're guaranteed for 3 months, but can work for longer. It looks like you've had yours for about a year.

If you still have it, give it a try in tandem with your Victoreen 488A.

I like to run my fusor right up to max voltage for a control run, taking note of background counts & see that no bubbles are forming. (This also makes sure it's not counting X-rays). Then I do a deuterium run, making sure there is a significant boost in detector counts, as well as bubbles forming. (I only have 20kV to use, so mine takes a few minutes to get a few bubbles).

Finally, the fast neutron test. Take the detector out of the HDPE moderator and ensure the counts plummet to background (or really close) levels. I only have eBay images to go off of, but it looks like it's fairly easy to take the tube out of the 488A, remove the moderator, and put the tube back in. Make sure to not have the moderator sitting next to the tube; it can act as a reflector.

Maybe you have already this covered in your write up, but sufficient proof of the above would allay concerns.

And speaking of that... the links in my Images du Jour thread are now broke! I need to reply with the new links.

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Carl Willis
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by Carl Willis » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:56 am

Or better yet, Tanner should start a new discussion in "Construction & Operation" or "Neutron Detection", and populate it with support related to his neutron measurement. Images Du Jour is intended to be a transient image directory and it gets purged from time to time. (I wonder if that wouldn't be a blessing for a number of posts in the present thread.)

Aside from the neutron detection procedure, my big question about Tanner's "world's smallest" fusor is whether the voltage he thinks is being put on the grid really is, because that would be a remarkable accomplishment for a feedthrough that is in no way expected to perform to that voltage on account of its size. That's why I recommend that he actually take some readings from the handy 0-10V divider that Glassman provides. My suspicion is that while he may have the power supply setpoint pot up there at 45 kV, the output may be bogged down at max current and delivering just a fraction of that voltage.

Use Images du Jour ONLY to post images that, in all likelihood, will not be around for long.

-Carl
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Conrad Farnsworth
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by Conrad Farnsworth » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:16 am

Tanner,

While I am not here to comment on your moral and/or intellectual character, it is important that you see past the way people can be anal. "Good" science lies within peer review. I would definitely appreciate a video walk through addressing your systems in full. My largest concern is that of your feed through and neutron detection system (but that's been addressed). From what I see, it appears to be a nylon flange cover with a coaxial cable JB welded to it. Any chance we can get a closer look?

-Conrad

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Rich Feldman
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by Rich Feldman » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:28 am

Hey Tanner,
I apologize for picking on the speling in your web design project. That was irrelevant to the thread topic, and I hope it was uncharacteristic of my fusor.net posts. Will plead "had a bad day". On the bright side: at fusor.net, high achievers get to practice handling antagonism and ridicule with grace and confidence.

Am looking forward to seeing more details about your setup. Richard Hull has written a comprehensive checklist. Regarding imaginary contests of priority: Is a first-neutron date as relevant as the (un-arguable) date that a report meets a standard of completeness?

Re. your 45 kV and 7.5 mA: I stand with those who are skeptical in the absence of measurements. How hard or expensive can that be? Control settings and nameplate ratings don't count without validation. (That's a scientist's or engineer's perspective. Businessmen focus on empirical results and repeatability.) I think you might be a contender for World's Least Instrumented Working Fusor.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box

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Richard Hull
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Re: First neutrons from worlds smallest Fusor!

Post by Richard Hull » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:38 pm

My first posting did indeed give a list of my issues with this particular effort regardless of any acceptance of previous efforts. This is a new effort. I made no claims of fraud regarding this effort. I merely called into question the completeness of the claim and begged other folks who have done fusion to comment. Most agree that more is needed.

Anyone with any significant electrical knowledge will know that electrical loading in an active gas plasma can literally be anyhting based on pressure and the voltage applied. Gas can glow at a few hundred volts and if the voltage is raised, the current can go into the full ampere or hundreds of ampere range, but most often, the supply voltage falls to its knees when this is attempted, especially in smaller, low power supplies. This is why it is absolutely critical to meter the voltage and current at the supply output or with a supplied divider system within the supply itself. The pressure must agree with claimed voltages and currents. Thus, information about all three values during fusion will be demanded.

The emphasis on neutron detection methods is also critical.

I realized you are not claiming membership into the neutron club. You are already there. You are claiming something of note, however, that would be added to the neutron club. "The smallest fusor ever". This special title is already claimed and proven by someone else. If you wish to take it away from the current owner, all that we ask is to prove it to all present in a sufficient and acceptable manner.

I hope that all the preceding posts will amplify the concerns of many here related to this particular effort.

As relates to posts being purged here, the rules are fully stated and have long been in effect. This post is archived with no deletions expected or needed. It shows how we handle critical reviews and couldn't supply an overview of this process better, in spite of some of the unrelated aspects commented upon.

As Carl notes to all, "keep your eye on the ball".

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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