Got what i consider to be almost perfect star mode in my demo fusor!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKizlxBRyFE
You really get to see almost exactly how it looks about 50 seconds in.
and my first (actually second, but this was longer, better, and didnt have me screaming for joy) light
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihWaY1gz388
the black forming on the glass is (i think) from some putty im using to hold my inner grid in at the side. either that, or pump oil that got in the jar earlier.
It gets annoying at the best part unfortunately...
Archived - My first (almost) perfect star!
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Frank Sanns
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Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
Congratulations on the plasma but this is not star mode. The first video shows a bugle jet. The second one not even that. This is just typical plasma glow at higher pressures than star mode.
In just about all cases, a simple two stage mechanical pump alone will not get you down to low enough pressures for star mode. It has been done including fusion with just a pump but it is by far the exception than the rule.
Frank Sanns
In just about all cases, a simple two stage mechanical pump alone will not get you down to low enough pressures for star mode. It has been done including fusion with just a pump but it is by far the exception than the rule.
Frank Sanns
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Doug Coulter
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Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
This should be plasma club material, but no, you're not getting a star. I'd have to guess that you are about at 10 times the pressure needed to see that - I've taken pressure sweeps, and that bugle happens somewhere around 10-40 times the pressure you have to get down to in order to get a distinct poisser and rays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb3x2yPFcB8
is one of those (check DCFusor's channel, about a year ago, for more).
FWIW, I've never seen good rays or fusion with a spiral grid, which I've tried in several designs and sizes.
Bottom line, Frank is right. Don't be discouraged - but also, don't expect to get much better results than anyone else using the same gear - you're on-track for what you are using, you just need better vacuum and a better grid - just like everyone else has.
Edit: here's a bugle with a "real" pressure reading, subject to the known issues with pure D and my particular gage (pkr-251) which reads a little high on light gasses. Factor of 10 better is what you need. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY_jKJQUAlg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb3x2yPFcB8
is one of those (check DCFusor's channel, about a year ago, for more).
FWIW, I've never seen good rays or fusion with a spiral grid, which I've tried in several designs and sizes.
Bottom line, Frank is right. Don't be discouraged - but also, don't expect to get much better results than anyone else using the same gear - you're on-track for what you are using, you just need better vacuum and a better grid - just like everyone else has.
Edit: here's a bugle with a "real" pressure reading, subject to the known issues with pure D and my particular gage (pkr-251) which reads a little high on light gasses. Factor of 10 better is what you need. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY_jKJQUAlg
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
well that would most definitely count toward suckage.I really thought I had something there. But I know the second one was nothing, that was just one of my first lights
So for now, I will most definitely change the grid. But because I am at such high pressure right now, would increasing the voltage do? or would that just cause un-needed radiation hazards?
And other than the bugle, what else exactly needs to change in order to get it?
So for now, I will most definitely change the grid. But because I am at such high pressure right now, would increasing the voltage do? or would that just cause un-needed radiation hazards?
And other than the bugle, what else exactly needs to change in order to get it?
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Tyler Christensen
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Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
More voltage isn't really possible due to the non-linear VI relationships in a plasma device. It'll draw many orders of magnitude more current if you were to turn up the voltage by an order of magnitude (surely more than your chamber or supply could ever support). There isn't really any way to get from your situation to starmode without a stronger vacuum.
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
that disappointing....
what exactly do you mean by "isnt really possible?" though
can you explain on that whole thing? im still an extreme novice
what exactly do you mean by "isnt really possible?" though
can you explain on that whole thing? im still an extreme novice
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Tyler Christensen
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Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
Basically, you run into a wall at a given pressure where more voltage requires much more than linearly more current.
There should be lots of discussions to search for on the forum regarding the relationship of voltage, pressure, and current, which are all related and all affect each other in a practical fusor scenario.
There should be lots of discussions to search for on the forum regarding the relationship of voltage, pressure, and current, which are all related and all affect each other in a practical fusor scenario.
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Richard Hull
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- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
Bugles and clean jets appear at about 50 microns. They get skinnier and crisp with a perfect sherical central glow around 20 microns. Star mode just gets visible below 15 microns but is distinct with multiple rays in a near perfect geodesic grid below 10 microns.
What you have, at best, in your jar is about 70-100 microns.
Welcome to the plasma club.
Richard Hull
What you have, at best, in your jar is about 70-100 microns.
Welcome to the plasma club.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Chris Bradley
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Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
Richard Hull wrote:
> Bugles and clean jets appear at about 50 microns. They get skinnier and crisp with a perfect sherical central glow around 20 microns. Star mode just gets visible below 15 microns but is distinct with multiple rays in a near perfect geodesic grid below 10 microns.
>
> What you have, at best, in your jar is about 70-100 microns.
I suspect higher still - the smaller the vessel, and the worse the electrical arrangements (viz. a glass jar, rather than a conducting vessel) makes these effects prevalent at higher pressures. Prob 100~500 microns.
Bottom line is - it's nothing to do with your voltage (looks like you are operating around the high-hundreds of volts here, but not yet into kV) nor grid. The limits of your system here are about the ultimate vacuum of your 'vacuum system'. I put it in inverted comments because what you have there barely qualifies as one - no disrespect to your work at all, in fact the opposite can be said and I am surprised that you have achieved even that level of vacuum with what you have, because it does appear to be in sub Torr range (just!) which is a surprisingly good effort from those parts!
Getting the right bits to create a much better system can be done on a small budget providing you keep a look-out for good, clean 2nd hand lab bits. and wait a while for them to come up. You have already surpassed what might be expected with the items you've currently assembled!
> Bugles and clean jets appear at about 50 microns. They get skinnier and crisp with a perfect sherical central glow around 20 microns. Star mode just gets visible below 15 microns but is distinct with multiple rays in a near perfect geodesic grid below 10 microns.
>
> What you have, at best, in your jar is about 70-100 microns.
I suspect higher still - the smaller the vessel, and the worse the electrical arrangements (viz. a glass jar, rather than a conducting vessel) makes these effects prevalent at higher pressures. Prob 100~500 microns.
Bottom line is - it's nothing to do with your voltage (looks like you are operating around the high-hundreds of volts here, but not yet into kV) nor grid. The limits of your system here are about the ultimate vacuum of your 'vacuum system'. I put it in inverted comments because what you have there barely qualifies as one - no disrespect to your work at all, in fact the opposite can be said and I am surprised that you have achieved even that level of vacuum with what you have, because it does appear to be in sub Torr range (just!) which is a surprisingly good effort from those parts!
Getting the right bits to create a much better system can be done on a small budget providing you keep a look-out for good, clean 2nd hand lab bits. and wait a while for them to come up. You have already surpassed what might be expected with the items you've currently assembled!
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
Alright, now im understanding more of this. Thank you all.
current progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp_OHrbSzEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w8EX8iPAWo
i took two because my camera simply just wouldnt focus...
is this at least a little better now that they get thin and are almost gone?
Richard -
that was very helpful, i will start looking for a new pump, but for now i guess this will hold me over to force myself to improve on what ive got.
Chris -
Wow. really? Didnt think that much! in no way do i take any disrespect to this. Everything here has been done with probably the bare minimum.. Plus, i would rather know what is really up with what ive been doing rather than it be sugar coded in any way.
Right now, im going to drill another jar and line the inside with some aluminum tape leaving just a small window opening.
I will also work on a new grid rather then just a spiral
current progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp_OHrbSzEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w8EX8iPAWo
i took two because my camera simply just wouldnt focus...
is this at least a little better now that they get thin and are almost gone?
Richard -
that was very helpful, i will start looking for a new pump, but for now i guess this will hold me over to force myself to improve on what ive got.
Chris -
Wow. really? Didnt think that much! in no way do i take any disrespect to this. Everything here has been done with probably the bare minimum.. Plus, i would rather know what is really up with what ive been doing rather than it be sugar coded in any way.
Right now, im going to drill another jar and line the inside with some aluminum tape leaving just a small window opening.
I will also work on a new grid rather then just a spiral
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Richard Hull
- Moderator
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- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:44 am
- Real name: Richard Hull
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
Your pump may be just fine!
It is your chamber, the tiny vacuum line and all that crud! Your pump is struggling and the oil in it may now be fouled. Give the pump a fresh oil change, a pristine and spotlessly clean and degreased 1" diameter vacuum line and a chamber that is equally spotless and you might be surprised at how low you can go.
The fact that you can't get a lower pressure may have nothing to do with the pump at all!
As an analogy.... regardless of your current health or the current state of your pump, let us assume that you are your vacuum pump.
What you have with your demo fusor is akin to a situation where you have a soda straw in your mouth to breathe through and someone is choking you to death, but they are also blowing cigar smoke into the tiny soda straw opening while choking you. You are doing your best to breathe but not enough to warrant your survival. This is your current vacuum situation.
Richard Hull
It is your chamber, the tiny vacuum line and all that crud! Your pump is struggling and the oil in it may now be fouled. Give the pump a fresh oil change, a pristine and spotlessly clean and degreased 1" diameter vacuum line and a chamber that is equally spotless and you might be surprised at how low you can go.
The fact that you can't get a lower pressure may have nothing to do with the pump at all!
As an analogy.... regardless of your current health or the current state of your pump, let us assume that you are your vacuum pump.
What you have with your demo fusor is akin to a situation where you have a soda straw in your mouth to breathe through and someone is choking you to death, but they are also blowing cigar smoke into the tiny soda straw opening while choking you. You are doing your best to breathe but not enough to warrant your survival. This is your current vacuum situation.
Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
That is SUCH good news to me!
My pump (from harbor freight) actually just decided to stop working (even after 2 hours cooling outside) and so in a im returning this one and getting another one. Ill drill a new glass, this time fill the grid hole in with epoxy rather than putty to keep it cleaner, and make it permanent. on the way back from HF, ill stop at lowes for the parts for a new 1" line.
in the mean time, I guess ill show you how i have it set up.
pics:
the entire thing is just a hole cut out of the top of the jar lid, with a grommet in the middle and a barb fitting through. A cap with a hole drilled holds the entire thing together.
Washers where placed on top to prevent leaks.
as for the anode, for temporary grids im just using some putty (which works great, but is probably whats contaminating it) but for anything more permanent, epoxy of course.
i tried keeping it as simple as possible to keep leaks out. Once i get the money ill work on something better
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... 2lOSWhoN1k
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... lp3YllyMXM
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... zBfeVdBaUU
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... y1WNlFzeEE
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... Ex3TzRYM0k
My pump (from harbor freight) actually just decided to stop working (even after 2 hours cooling outside) and so in a im returning this one and getting another one. Ill drill a new glass, this time fill the grid hole in with epoxy rather than putty to keep it cleaner, and make it permanent. on the way back from HF, ill stop at lowes for the parts for a new 1" line.
in the mean time, I guess ill show you how i have it set up.
pics:
the entire thing is just a hole cut out of the top of the jar lid, with a grommet in the middle and a barb fitting through. A cap with a hole drilled holds the entire thing together.
Washers where placed on top to prevent leaks.
as for the anode, for temporary grids im just using some putty (which works great, but is probably whats contaminating it) but for anything more permanent, epoxy of course.
i tried keeping it as simple as possible to keep leaks out. Once i get the money ill work on something better
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... 2lOSWhoN1k
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... lp3YllyMXM
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... zBfeVdBaUU
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... y1WNlFzeEE
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ryGt ... Ex3TzRYM0k
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Mike Veldman
- Posts: 155
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- Real name: Mike Veldman
- Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
I would strongly suggest you not drill the glass itself. The hole in the glass weakens the entire envelope. You can bring all the vacuum and voltage lines through the top plate. Use JB weld to seal the feed through into the top plate. Years back I used the mason jars for an in service class of science teachers, I set up and tested the breakage on the jars without the lid. I did a write up on here in the images section. I also made the outer grid hyperbolic to attempt to focus any stray electron beams at the metal top plate rather than the glass. We made the grids from stainless mig welding wire with no welded joints, just tightly twisted. I also made a cage for the jars from expanded metal, I never had one break, but still, safety first. I have a vacuum gauge tube mounted on the two jars I made up and have had them as deep as 50 microns, never lower.
As another suggestion, don't bother with the foil tape on the inside of the jar, you'll just introduce more contaminants from an adhesive that will probably never stop out gassing. Pick up one of those stainless spaghetti keepers or some other stainless chamber like item from the department store and use it as a small bell jar against a shop made vacuum plate. There have been several fusors pictured here using kitchen hardware, look in the images and construction sections. An inexpensive sight glass can be made using the oil level sight glass from a compressor. I always tell the kids I work with, when playing with vacuum to think in terms of the 15psi pressure, that's what you are trying to keep out. That and everything you put into a vacuum environment out gasses, some more some less.
One more note that just occurred to me, thrift stores and yard sales are good places to find stainless kitchen stuff to make things from on the cheap. I've found several pressure cookers that way for disposable mirror silvering chambers.
I think what you're doing is great.
mike
As another suggestion, don't bother with the foil tape on the inside of the jar, you'll just introduce more contaminants from an adhesive that will probably never stop out gassing. Pick up one of those stainless spaghetti keepers or some other stainless chamber like item from the department store and use it as a small bell jar against a shop made vacuum plate. There have been several fusors pictured here using kitchen hardware, look in the images and construction sections. An inexpensive sight glass can be made using the oil level sight glass from a compressor. I always tell the kids I work with, when playing with vacuum to think in terms of the 15psi pressure, that's what you are trying to keep out. That and everything you put into a vacuum environment out gasses, some more some less.
One more note that just occurred to me, thrift stores and yard sales are good places to find stainless kitchen stuff to make things from on the cheap. I've found several pressure cookers that way for disposable mirror silvering chambers.
I think what you're doing is great.
mike
I tried to contain myself, but I escaped.
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Rich Feldman
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- Location: Santa Clara County, CA, USA
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
Another low-cost option is to use a metal jar and a rigid clear plastic lid.
The vacuum port(s) could be on the metal part. So could the high voltage feedthrough, for that matter, so you'd have an unobstructed view. Acrylic plastic -will- outgas, and may eventually be etched or melted by plasmas, electron beams, or hot grids nearby.
I made one like that, show in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4050#p21458 but have never yet run electricity into it.
Also have an almost cubical steam-table pan, like one in the picture below, from Smart and Final. Have not yet tried to evacuate it. Has anyone else here used those?
The vacuum port(s) could be on the metal part. So could the high voltage feedthrough, for that matter, so you'd have an unobstructed view. Acrylic plastic -will- outgas, and may eventually be etched or melted by plasmas, electron beams, or hot grids nearby.
I made one like that, show in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4050#p21458 but have never yet run electricity into it.
Also have an almost cubical steam-table pan, like one in the picture below, from Smart and Final. Have not yet tried to evacuate it. Has anyone else here used those?
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All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
Re: My first (almost) perfect star!
Mike V -
Yeah, i figured it would. I havent had any problems or anything with that yet, so lets just *hope i dont run into any. But I just finally got the fittings for a 3/4 inch hose, and that alone takes up so much space on top. For the outer grid, yeah that didnt work out well so i just made a spiral from wire going around the top and inside the top fitting.
I pass by a thrift store on the way to class in the morning, so now and then when I have time I'll stop by and take a peak at what they have
And just before I checked on here, I was thinking JB weld. I guess I'll start using that now rather than anything else.
Thanks
Rich F - Wow. I really like that pot idea. Probably what I'll do next!
Absolutely thank you guys for your help!
Im also getting more of a beam now then just a bugle jet. Better results with the spiral than with a ball grid though - not sure if thats a good or bad thing
Yeah, i figured it would. I havent had any problems or anything with that yet, so lets just *hope i dont run into any. But I just finally got the fittings for a 3/4 inch hose, and that alone takes up so much space on top. For the outer grid, yeah that didnt work out well so i just made a spiral from wire going around the top and inside the top fitting.
I pass by a thrift store on the way to class in the morning, so now and then when I have time I'll stop by and take a peak at what they have
And just before I checked on here, I was thinking JB weld. I guess I'll start using that now rather than anything else.
Thanks
Rich F - Wow. I really like that pot idea. Probably what I'll do next!
Absolutely thank you guys for your help!
Im also getting more of a beam now then just a bugle jet. Better results with the spiral than with a ball grid though - not sure if thats a good or bad thing
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