New Home for Doug's Fusor

Current images of fusor efforts, components, etc. Try to continuously update from your name, a current photo using edit function. Title post with your name once only. Change image and text as needed. See first posting for details.
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Bob Reite
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New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Bob Reite »

Here I will be posting images and descriptions of setting up Doug's fusor at it's new home in PA. The ultimate goal is to reproduce the "Gonzo Mode" reported by Doug about seven years ago. Gonzo Mode is reputed to produce 100 times the neutron output of a standard fusor for the same input power. This photo shows the first step in reassembly, to get the vacuum chamber back onto the table. Here you can see how I rigged it.
fusor_newhome1.jpg
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Joe Gayo
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Joe Gayo »

I would love to hear the theory and experimental design for "gonzo" mode.
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Mark Rowley
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Mark Rowley »

Looking at the old “gonzo mode” posts, it was claimed the neutron output was so intense it activated tools (iron, steel, cobalt ?) across the room to dangerous levels. Or at least to levels that necessitated their disposal. I can’t deny my skepticism here.

Aside from that, Dougs novel fusor design was a true performer and surely achieved some record events.

Bob, in no uncertain terms your commitment to rebuilding Dougs fusor is nothing short of commendable.

Mark Rowley
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Joe Gayo
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Joe Gayo »

How would a "power triode armstrong oscillator" work with ions at mTorr pressures? The mean free path is less than a centimeter. I've looked at some old posts and I see a lot of references to D+ recirculation, which seems very unlikely. First, because most of the plasma is D2+ and second because of charge exchange collisions. RF tube amplifiers work because they rely on low pressures and electrons.

I think trying to repeat his experiment is a noble cause and I do applaud the efforts. I'm just trying to understand what's expected.

Joe
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Cai Arcos »

Joe:

Doug always used to compare it to the "plasma triode", mainly because (if I understand this correctly) he was operating in a region where no breakdown happened between central grid and anode. Then, he used the auxiliary grid as an ion source, which could modulate the plasma density and thus have gain.

The whole thing is similar to the Plasmatron operated in diode mode designed by E.O. Johnson (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4051017), operated in a lower pressure regime and thus with a much higher breakdown voltage between cathode and central anode.

While that explains the gain (and thus the oscillator), I still don't really understand many more points about recirculation. In his theory page he compares his work to Barkhausen-Kurtz oscillations using ions. However, Barkhausen-Kurtz oscillations need a few transit times in order to form coherent bunches and start oscillating, which as you say doesn't seem plausible at this pressures. And all the posts about using various oscillating configurations always seemed to lead to relaxation waveforms, nothing about stable sines.

I believe he was well aware of this, and is the reason why in his later years he spent so much money in effort in designing broadband HV amps, and why he often talked about "driven recirculation", in order to exploit transit time effects to get bunching even with a lot of collisions.

I assume you have already checked his theory page: https://www.coultersmithing.com/Reports ... heory.html


Just my two cents. Hopefully his legacy (both his forum and his fusor work) can be preserved, because his work was outstanding.
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Richard Hull
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

I, too, was highly skeptical. But awaited more data, in the form of tool activation decay graphs to identify specific elemental isotopes created. Instead we are told they were so hazardous that they were discarded! I would never though away an activated hand tool. It would be my proof! Doubting colleges could bring their GM counters to a special gathering and I would lay out the tools for counting and let them use my gamma spec on the tool of their choice to make sure I had not salted the tool. I doubt if this kind of event took place. Throwing away tools is easy. Proving to a critical audience that those tools are dangerously neutron activated to the point of being no longer safe to use or possess takes real stones and confidence unbounded in what you have done. One must assume the word "tools", as mentioned in the original gonzo post, means tools of steel, iron, SS or of some metal tough enough to bear the moniker of "tool".

This entire claim just lacks any rigor in the experimental data taken over time. Multiple future super Gonzo runs with careful data collection and specific dangerous activations tracked over time as to decay, etc.. It does have a posited theoretical explanation by the claimant with a statement of thrown away activated tools. Nothing says I have gonzo mode like a tool so dangerous you don't want to lay hands on it ever again....Provided you follow its decay curve and identify specific isotopes of such half-lives as to present a long term health hazard.

Hopefully, Bob can hit Gonzo mode and place a very rusty old tool, wrench, hammer head, screwdriver, etc., in a moderator near the device and activate the iron, vanadium, chrome, nickel and whatever other alloy constituents might be present. I ain't holding my breath on this one. If Bob activates the tool to contain such long half-lived isotopes to the point of not being able to continue using it or be around that tool in future, I will make the pilgrimage to this shrine of a system. Still, as usual, all my best in the effort. Should Bob fail in this quest, the Gonzo mode will join the ever repeated Farnsworth team's "runaway fusor" as being relegated to mere "lore of yore" related to this effort.

Again, loads of good skeptics and a vast Gonzo mode booster following to match. As old Ben Franklin proclaimed...."Let the Experiment be done!"


Color me exceedingly skeptical....

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Frank Sanns »

I want to be clear that I am not trying to throw cold water onto the claimed result. Sometimes Fusor.net gets a bad reputation for being harsh or overly critical of some of people’s work. This is not the case. The critical thinkers here are genuinely interested in the work but are asking questions that could easily confirm the results.

Activation is the figurative photographic proof of what was observed. If the tools were that hot afterwards, then there was a significant neutron event. But if the tool were that hot, so much should all else in the building. This would include the Fusor itself as well as even the nails or bolts of the table that the device sat on. Cables, connectors, detectors, power supplies and all other metal item would contain indisputable evidence. These metals would have been less activated farther away from the event so something reasonably radioactively would not have to be discarded. I had said this at the time but nothing was ever produced. People are mostly water so they are great moderators. As such zippers and buckles of people in the room would have been be prime items to verify an SNE (significant neutron event) had occurred.

Like I said, I don’t want to cast doubt on any of Doug’s work as he was really bright and he pushed the limits. But no verifiable lasting evidence and never a repeat of this experiment at a greater distance was ever done. Knowing Doug, I believe he would have been unstoppable at doing it again rather than just letting it fall into the abyss.
Achiever's madness; when enough is still not enough. ---FS
We have to stop looking at the world through our physical eyes. The universe is NOT what we see. It is the quantum world that is real. The rest is just an electron illusion. ---FS
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Richard Hull
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

As the now long dead Carl Sagan said.....extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. Thanks Frank. You are right to note we can seem nasty to delicate souls seemingly bound up in claimed revelations. Many here are engineers and scientists. All of these disciplines deal with precise measurement and well outlined and presented data. This is never too much to ask for in any scientific venue. We never seek to be hurtful, but just push hard for real organized experiment, collected data that is relevant to backup claims made of a nature seemingly out of line with current work in the area under study. If this hurts feelings, then those hurt need to put on their big boy scientific pants or develop much tougher skins.

Basically, if you, as a "believer" have never neutron activated an element with your own fusion device, you might want to get busy and do it. You will find out a lot of real world issues tear at your preconceptions regarding neutron activation. You will find that long-lived isotopes of common metals of low cross section are just about impossible to activate to a dangerous level in all but cores of operational fission power reactors.

Iron for example, the largest constituent of most all tools (~95% or more) has 4 stable isotopes ....(Fe 54,56,57,58)....Fe 54-6%, can be activated with a cross section of ~3 to create Fe 55 with a 2.6 year half life, but decays by EC and emits only very weak x rays and no Beta. Fe56, Fe57 make up the bulk of all iron metal, (93%), and cannot be made active by simple neutron bombardment, this leaves the best candidate of Iron 58 making up only 0.3% of stable iron with the tiny cross section of 1.1 it activates only in intense fluxes to Fe 59 with a 46 day half life. It emits hot 1.6 mev max betas and 1.0 to 1.2 mev gammas.
Thus, the sole candidate for intensely hot iron activation is the 0.3% content of iron 58 to iron 59 with the tiny cross section of 1.1 in a fully thermalized flux of neutrons. the above data taken from the table of the isotopes.

Gleaning more data from the radio chemical manual........... Iron 55 is produced again, by neutron activation of iron 54. In the seething hot core of a fission reactor in a flux of 10e12 neutrons/sq cm/sec and cooking it for a week in the reactor would make only 190uCi of Fe 55/gm of iron, emitting a 5.9kev x-ray and nothing more. Finally, dropping the stable isotope of 0.3% Fe 58 in the same hot core of a working reactor for a week would make only 84uci of Fe59/gram which could produce lots of hots betas and hot gammas with a 46 day half life.
In the end, only the Fe59 would be tracked by a nuclear detector such as a GM counter.
Using logic and the above data, it would be effectively impossible to activate a mostly iron tool over a short run with any flux available from a residential electrical drop in any home made device.
I am stunned no one ran the numbers on this issue once Doug made his claim.

True, there are many grams of iron in any useful tool but the stable iron Fe56 and 57 would shield any internal betas from Fe59. In addition his neutrons were not fully moderately (mostly fast only). In the end, the numbers just don't allow for a dangerously radioactive tool.

It would be real cool to operate a fusor like device from the standard residential electrical drop and activate everything within a 20 foot radius to very dangerous levels. I am all for that.....But don't just tell me about it... show me real, acceptable, scientific proof that it was done.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Back in 2016 I exchanged a few private messages with Doug. There were a few take aways I had.
1. Doug was very bright and his mind was extremely active and innovative... the classic think-outside-the-box guy who are the kind that most typically become Richard's so-called lucky donkeys.
2. Doug honestly believed that gonzo mode happened. I saw no signs that he was making claims for attention except the tool activation piece.
3. I don't think that Doug had completely thought through some of the activation event. I have some university experience with neutron activation. Yes, you can activate with fast neutrons but a huge fluence is needed and in metals, most products decay quickly. He theorized that material in his shop thermalized the flux, and mentioned it was a damp crawl space. I remain skeptical to this day. If tools were activated and discarded, where were they discarded? To discard them as radwaste legally would have gathered some real attention. I also believe that long term activation of tools requiring their disposal would have killed Doug relatively quickly.
4. Doug was more open about his work than his posting secrecy would have people believe. He told me that he didn't want profit himself but didn't want someone else to grab his work and profit instead. He preferred open source.

When I looked back at Doug's messages to me from in 2016, I was reminded that he invited me to see his lab. I wondered why I hadn't gone and remembered that I was working away from home for 19 months back then. I wish now that I had found a way.

Jim K
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Joe Gayo
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Joe Gayo »

Cai:

Thanks for the response.

To be clear, my intention isn't to throw stones, but to understand.

Bob:

I assume you have private information from Doug. Is this information going to be posted?

Joe
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Richard Hull
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Great points Jim! You tend to back up my activation presentation above. Net Zero thermal flux during the Gonzo mode making all normal activation statistics null and void. Any attempts at recreation of the claimed event are equivalent to a snipe hunt, in my mind. Like Farnsworth, Doug is gone. Legends and tales of amazing claims live long afterwards.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
Jon Rosenstiel
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Jon Rosenstiel »

I seem to recall that what became activated were steel wrenches and lathe tool bits containing some small amount of cobalt. (Cobalt-steel)

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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by billwcf »

So I wasn't there during Doug's , I will say "claimed" to appease everyone, run. I thank God I wasn't. I too only know what Doug told me. He said he was tweaking knobs etc, and suddenly heard a searing, white noise type of sound coming from the from the speakers. He had attached an audio amp and speakers to the output of the neutron tube so he could "hear" the relative neutron output from the He3 tube. He learned of this Idea from Richard. He said all of his equipment was "flooded" or maybe shutdown, can't remember precisely. During a normal run the audio sounded like heavy rain on a tin roof. He immediately couldn't figure out what was wrong. I can understand that as I have a radiac set I purchased from Richard that I run to listen to cosmics. I came home one day after a tec99 heart scan and heard a searing screaming sound. I immediately couldn't understand what was going on either, until I realized it was "Me" causing the screaming.
Doug was immediately bed ridden after the "accident" with vomiting and diarrhea for about two weeks. A curious scientist would speculate a cause and effect relationship between the events. Additionally, Doug never got a cold or anything during the time I knew him. I suspect his close relationship with microbes helped out his immune system as he wasn't really good at hygiene, so the i discounted the idea that he may have had the flu or something after the event. I always took my own food and drink to Doug's and would sometimes come home looking like a "coal miner" after crawling around some of the equipment or running wires underneath etc.
I had come upon a "stash" of Woods metal that melts at 158 degrees. We used it to "shield" a lot of stuff around the fusor because it was so easy to cast. After the event I had it analyzed at a scrap yard. It contained about 10 per cent cadmium. Doug looked up the neutron data on cadmium and realized it gives of a 9mv gamma from neutron capture. Doug thought and probably rightly so that the cadmium helped "cook" him. I think in a discussion with Richard, Richard had stated that he thought Doug had had excessive xray exposure. We immediately removed all the woods metal.
I was up at Doug's about two weeks after the "event" I scanned the room with my survey meter and found no excessively high background. Doug never lost his hair that I knew of.
I have no doubt that "something" happened with the fusor to make Doug sick. His close neighbor confirmed Doug was "really sick" for about two weeks. His neighbor is an EMT. I believe the fusor got into some sort of positive feedback mode and pumped out an incredible amount of neutrons and gamma rays, how many, no one knows.
Yes, there are no "pictures or it didn't happen" data to go with this, only Doug's account and what Doug told me. So I will leave it up to you to think what you think.
Bill
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Bill,
I believe that something happened though I'm not sure the activation story makes sense.

I have seen ridiculous short transient neutron numbers on my fusor. With my current BF3 tube that usually reads 20 kcpm at 45 kV and 10 mA, I have seen the needle spike to the end of scale at 500 with a 1k multiplier on my ludlum 2200. I am not sure if it was real or noise because the transients last only a few seconds. They have been coincident with reaching a high shell temperature. So, one theory is that the shell released a bunch of D all at once. I saw Richard's fusor have similar neutron transients last October at HEAS.

Maybe that's what Doug saw.

Jim K
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Richard Hull
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Again, Bill gives us more good info on Doug and the event. Bill was about as close to Doug in a scientific sense as anyone around him as a regular in-person helper/assistant. I some times see Bill at hamfests and we chat a bit. He is often at the HEAS October events and has even showed up here on his own for a short visit.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Mark Rowley
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Mark Rowley »

Jim,
I’ve had the same brief spikes with a very similar neutron detection arrangement (Ludlum 2221 / CHM11 and CHM14 detector tubes). Luckily, I’ve experienced the condition several times while using a bubble detector. At no time did they reflect any increase in neutron production. I still contend the anomaly is either an electron runaway effect near the grid stalk causing electrical noise interference OR some type of high tension corona issue causing similar results. Fwiw, I’ve only noticed these brief occurrences while operating above 45kV. It was also more prevalent in the small cross fusor than the larger one I’m currently operating.

Bill, what do you mean by “positive feedback mode”?

Side note…
I know this whole thing is sensitive topic however, since Dougs fusor is being rebuilt with Gonzo Mode as the end goal, it’s important to highlight what he (Doug) had previously defined as “Gonzo Mode” in the old posts. That definition is the criteria that has to be met for successful replication.

With that being said, it does not undermine the astute technological advances Doug incorporated with his system. There have been quite a few highly respected folks observe his fusor churning out some phenomenal numbers. Numbers that, in my opinion, are not obtainable with the classic design. Undoubtedly we all can learn a lot from his advances.

Mark Rowley
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by billwcf »

By positive feedback I meant Doug's fusor was basically a triode set up as an oscillator. -bill
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Mark,
I'm not using a Russian tube anymore, but the phenomenon could still be noise.

Jim
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Bob Reite
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Bob Reite »

To Joe Gayo and others: The theoretical discussion of operating a fusor as an electronic oscillator and how "Gonzo Mode" might work is under another topic titled "Fusor as an oscillator, a serious discussion". I will continue to use this topic to post the reassembly progress and operational results obtained once put back together.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Richard Hull
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Thanks Bob! I was getting ready to suggest that....Yo beat me to it. Definitely let this thread be about the re-assembly and testing of Doug's fusor with plenty of images as you get time to take photos of your progress. I am interested enough in what Doug claimed, and built his theories around, to feel it deserves the attention that we might give it in discussion and perhaps experiment. the serious discussion can be picked up at......

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14021

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Bob Reite »

I now have all the mechanical and vacuum aspects reassembled and the fusor is now under vacuum. I really like the intermittent backing pump set up. It turns out that Pfeifffer designed this system to operate this way. In any case, the pix please!
fusor_front.jpg
fusor_rear.jpg
fusor_pressure.jpg
For those who are used to Torr, the reading on the display translates to 5.6 E-6. Darn good considering it's only been an hour and no bake out.

Next steps reconnect high voltage supplies, coils and ballast resistors and remote control system.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Richard Hull
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Richard Hull »

Fabulous work on this important restoration to functioning condition. Great pix and keep the reports on your effort coming.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Ameen Aydan »

I just wanted to jump in here,

I was talking to Doug about his feed through design a while back, trying to come up with some inspiration to make my own. After that conversation was over, he was quick to mention this "Gonzo" mode of his. Similar to what Bill had mentioned, Doug said that we was bed ridden for weeks and was incredibly sick after the event. It was a long time ago, but I do remember him mentioning something about a similarity between this event and mass spectrometers? One of you can make the connection LOL.

Anyways, he said that he reached the trillion neutron mark. So, hope that help...

AA
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Bob Reite
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by Bob Reite »

Update: I got the power supplies and the remote control electronics reinstalled. One of my ham radio buddies came up to visit so that we could do the Murgas hamfest. He also helped me run the fiber optic and 12 pair direct burial phone cable between the fusor shed and the office. I am now where I was when I bench tested the remote control system. I can see the grid cam, admit gas (currently air) into the chamber and read the pressure "after the fact". Haven't found where the code is buried to display pressure, voltage and current in real time. Anyway, pix below:
electronics.jpg
Electronics installed.
gridcam.jpg
Grid Cam, with quartz bulb illumination.
The more reactive the materials, the more spectacular the failures.
The testing isn't over until the prototype is destroyed.
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Re: New Home for Doug's Fusor

Post by John Futter »

Excellent Bob
Is the quartz bulb what Doug had in there for degassing??

Its been a while since I saw it
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