Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

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Mark Rowley
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Mark Rowley »

Keep it up Nathan, love the progress and Can-Do attitude.
I had limited success with the HF meters past 25kV. Exact same issues you and Jim have described and that's with copious shielding and grounding. Ultimately I opted for a nice Triplett analog meter which quickly solved the problem.

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Richard Hull
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Richard Hull »

Analog metering will never display the precision of a digital, but they will be around a lot longer and do good enough in the HV realm. No one here needs to know 36kv to better than +/- 200 volts. Harbor Freight meters are not good in high RF or EMP environments.... Few digitals are. It is extremely tough to kill an analog VTVM or VOM. (unless you drop it on a concrete floor - jeweled movement) Digitals will usually survive such a drop.

Choose all metering based on where and under what conditions it is built for. Hamfests are the best place to pick up a venerable old VTVM or lots of specific analog meter movements that you can turn into anything you wish. I have so many meter movements purchased over my lifetime that I have them in several large, cataloged boxes stacked up in the lab from 0-20ua to 5 amps. I tend not to buy voltmeters unless they are 0-30kv or the like, scaled, and have 50ua or 100ua movements.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Nathan Marshall
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Nathan Marshall »

Mark and Richard, you reminded me that I have an old analog meter that my grandfather gave to me years ago! I almost forgot about it. It has a 250 mV range so it is perfect for this application. I hooked it up and now even when the static EMPs occur there is no effect. The power supply is running great. The furthest I pushed it was 6mA at just over 30 kV. My Ludlum 44-9 probe starts to pick up x-rays even back where I am standing at that kind of power. So now I need to hook up the deuterium tank and regulator, and get some reliable neutron detection working.
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Nathan, I am certain you will be in the neutron club soon. I admire your careful work, especially the power supply.

Stay safe.

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Victor Gonzalez
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Victor Gonzalez »

Do you have a reason to use these 2 capacitors?

I have almost the same setup for a PMT (I used an lm317 for voltage control), and the voltage output with and without these 2 capacitors are the same.
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Nathan Marshall
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Nathan Marshall »

Victor: I was under the impression that the way to make a negative voltage multiplier was simply to reverse the diodes of a positive voltage multiplier. I haven't read any source that recommends removing those capacitors when making a negative multiplier so I never thought to. I'd have to do some simulations or experiments to decide if they really contribute greatly to the function.

Since my last post, I got everything ready for fusion. I did some tests of pumping down the chamber with the diffusion pump, throttling off the pump with a butterfly valve, and admitting air through my flow restriction setup to see if I could get stable plasmas and pressures. I found that my grid was too large. I was getting crazy negative resistance which resulted in wild oscillations of current and voltage. So I ditched my grid and made one that was a bit less than 1 inch in diameter and with two rings instead of three. This works far better. I was able to tune the pressure and get stable plasmas at ~30kV and 2-5mA. I did some hydrogen runs with hydrogen generated by an old PEM cell I was given in 6th grade. I used Mark Rowley's syringe method for storing the gas. The main reason I did this was to convince myself that I wasn't sucking gas in at high rates which would waste deuterium. Lastly, I hooked up the deuterium tank to the gas line with a used Harris 9200-50 H2/CH3 regulator from eBay.

Then came a major disappointment. I was going for my first fusion attempt this afternoon. I had everything set up and ready to go: diffusion pump running, BD-PND bubble detector set up near the chamber, and my power supply ready to rumble. When I opened the valve on my deuterium tank, the high pressure gauge didn't even budge... My heart sank. I obtained this tank over six years ago with the help of my high school chemistry teacher. That was my freshman year of high school, and I was naive enough to think I would be able to achieve fusion then. I didn't realize the time and money that it really took. It is a Sigma-Aldrich tank and was originally pressurized to 25 atm, and has a volume of 459mL. I wonder if over the years it slowly leaked since deuterium is such a light gas. To my surprise, when I turned the knob on the regulator I was able to get some PSI on the low pressure side. So, I went ahead with my test. I got a beautiful red 25kV 5mA plasma at 30 microns for just a minute before the gauge on the low pressure side went back to zero. Any thoughts on what went wrong here? Did the tank just leak over time? Or did I have some sort of leak? I imagine a leak of that rate would have been quite audible, and the fact that the high pressure gauge never even budged leads me to think it was basically empty to begin with.

Plasma without deuterium:
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Plasma with deuterium before it ran out:
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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Jim Kovalchick »

Nathan,
Maybe your regulator has an obstruction. You should check it on another bottle or at least inspect the internals of the high side before assuming your bottle is empty. Also, cycle your bottle valve open and closed and open again.

I am curious about your short run. Did your plasma flash at the pressure you expected for your voltage. If it flashed at a lower pressure then it was just air in the line.

Good luck. You will be 'there' soon.

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Nathan Marshall
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Nathan Marshall »

Jim,
I did try opening and closing the tank a few times but to no avail. The pressure required in the chamber was higher than my runs with air. With air I was at about 5 microns on the baratron and for this short run I needed about 30 microns to get a similar plasma wattage. I'll take another look at the regulator like you suggested, but from what I could tell it appeared clean and in good condition. The fact that I got a little pressure on the low pressure side before it went away makes me think the bottle still had a bit of gas in it but then ran out. Thanks for the reassurance, I will soldier on! As one of the grad students I work with says: "It's always a fight."
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Sorry to hear; regulators aren't something that last - I've had some fail and a tank empties. But unless your primary valve (independent of the regulator) wasn't fully closed, the tank should have remained filled. Deuterium can't really diffuse through the lecture bottle (I've had one for over 6 years (in use) and it is fine but I always carefully and fully close the main valve fully tight. I will say, the residue gas in the regulator does leak away over a few days. Those small (read cheap) regulators can't be trusted to be the sole seal on the tank.)

I understand only too well getting ready to make one's first real fusion run only to take a hit. For me, my detector counter that zapped by the detector's HV supply. It is frustrating but you'll make it - your so very close. and have shown you can handle these issues.
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Nathan Marshall
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Nathan Marshall »

Dennis,
Well then perhaps it was my worst fear that occurred: the tank was full to begin with and something wrong with the regulator caused the whole bottle to leak in just the few minutes that I had the tank valve open... I should have closed it the moment that the high pressure gauge didn't budge. Hindsight is 20/20 and I think I was too blinded by the desire to go for fusion. Also if something is wrong with regulator, it once again goes to show that deal used buys on eBay usually lead to more frustration and money spent than just buying new to begin with. I still think that if the whole bottle leaked I would have heard some sort of hissing.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Richard Hull »

I always open the tank valve jsut barely to watch the low bressure gauge go to 4 PSI into my CO2 cartridge tank and immediately turn of the main tank valve. The little cartridge at 4 PSI will run the fusor for 10-20 minutes. I have never nor will I ever leave a main tank valve open regulator or no regulator attached. It stays hard off always until I need to let more into the little catridge at 4 PSI.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Dennis P Brown
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Dennis P Brown »

As for hearing the leak through a failed regulator; yes, you should have. It appears the tank emptied before that, which can only happen if the tank's main valve isn't fully closed or its 'pressure relief' valve failed at some point (my lecture bottle has one of those relief valves - don't know if all do. The main valve does not seal that off.)

No matter. Your next concern is getting deuterium so generating your own is the most straight forward, I'd think; and a number of people have done that here.
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Nathan Marshall
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Nathan Marshall »

I do have 10mL of heavy water on hand, so I can generate some deuterium with the PEM cell and use a syringe to store it. I got the gas line set up for that now this morning. I just need to dry out the PEM cell from the water that was in it before I put in the heavy water. Also I will do some tests to make sure my connections with the syringe are air-tight and see if I get flow rates in the 1mL per minute range. But at the moment I have a quantum take-home final exam to finish so I will prioritize that.
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Nathan Marshall
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Nathan Marshall »

I generated some hydrogen, stored it in a 60mL syringe, and fed it into the fusor. The fusor was sucking in gas at quite a high rate, so after throttling off the diffusion pump a bit I was able to taper off the gas consumption. Even after these adjustments it was still quite a bit higher than 1mL/min. Attached is a picture of the plasma. This time I found that to get a plasma in the ~25kV 2-5mA range I needed a pressure on the baratron of about 16 microns. So this is quite a bit lower than what I got with the deuterium from the tank. I'm guessing this points to the lesser purity and potential water contamination of the generated hydrogen. I'll keep playing around with this a bit more and then consider filling the PEM cell with some of the heavy water that I have in my element/chemical collection.

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Edit:
So I did another hydrogen run this evening after some more work on the quantum exam. Feeling pretty good about my answers now. This time I was able to establish a stable 1.3mL per minute flow rate into the chamber with stable 3-5mA 25-30kV plasmas at ~12 microns on the baratron! After the hydrogen run, I brought the chamber to the same 12 micron pressure with just air as a control test. As expected, the electrical characteristics were completely different! At 5mA the voltage was <8kV. Below is a picture comparison of the two plasmas.

Hydrogen at 12 microns, 28kV 4mA:
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Air at 12 microns, 7kV 5mA:
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Cai Arcos
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Cai Arcos »

Nathan:

First of all, I want to express my gratitude for all the details provided about a superb build, especially the affordable power supply.
I myself intent to imitate your efforts using a transformer I have found from a tube based CRT TV. The only problem are the capacitors themselves. The only item that I found on Ebay that is affordable on my budget is a set of 100pF 20kV caps. Even if I could connect two in parallel, that would still be 200pF, substantially lower than your own values. I understand the principle of operation behind a voltage multiplier, and thus know that the necessary capacitance depends on the frequency. From your own values, I assume that the frequency must indeed be high, however because I don't know the frequency of operation (which I suppose would also vary with the transformer itself) I can't perform the necessary calculations myself in order to check if those capacitors are adequate.
I would highly appreciate if you could use your experience and observations to guide me.

Thank you very much:
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by John Futter »

Cai
you also have to consider trr of the diodes which is why high voltage power supplies are lower in frequency than ordinary switch mode supplies
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Cai Arcos »

John:
I plan on buying 20kV 20mA diodes, with a trr of 100ns.
The capacitors are what worries me most, because everything else I've found with similar capacity and voltage ratings breaks the bank in my birthday fund.
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Cai, you should start your own thread with such questions rather than continue on this thread.

As for voltage multipliers (I built a monster one of over 100+ kV using large door knob caps), one does not need a full wave system (as shown in his drawing) - a half wave voltage multiplier (while, of course, half the power) can provided the same high voltage. This will save a good bit in cap costs (half the cost.) The issue is power - this will make or break a fusor supply.

I've found (rarely) large caps available for a reasonable price on ebay (but I wasn't looking for any at the time.) Deals appear and one must be ready and be patient till the desired deal occurs. The only way if one is limited in funds. Don't buy random stuff hoping it will work. If you are trying to copy his supply, (and it is proven to do fusion) then you have little choice in the design. Trying to develop one's own design/variation without the required knowledge (be unable to calculate the results using x,y & z components) is very likely to result in failure.

A ZVS (a high frequency driver supply) requires a very high current supply so those x-formers need to be beefy - as seen by his dual x-formers used in his system. I don't think a CRT display will do the job.

Note, I believe that the flyback used in his supply isn't standard (most commercial fly backs are way too under rated) - I believe he wound that himself (maybe just the primary but I'm not sure - that you should ask before buying parts). Relative to the secondary, maybe that is commercial but if not, winding that is very difficult. That isn't what most inexperienced builders try to do - for a flyback one issue is that the required x-former parts that will work aren't easy to find; and second, if one needs to make the secondary, wraping the HV section requires building the special winding jig/tool. For his supply, that fly back is the key item that make his HV system possible - the multiplier is just a small part of that construction project (and the easiest to build.)
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Cai Arcos »

It was not my intention to derail this thread, and as you say a new one should be started.
I thought it was acceptable, since I only wanted to know the operating frequency (since I can calculate all the other things I need from it),but I suppose I will just have to find out.
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Nathan Marshall
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Nathan Marshall »

Cai:
I just measured the input frequency from the ZVS Driver and it was about 50 kHz. See the attached oscilloscope shot of the input waveform:
IMG_5797.jpg
The flyback transformer that I am using is an old Thordarson FLY337 that I bought on eBay. It is a large open frame AC flyback. It is far larger than any flyback I've ever seen. I used the stock secondary coil. I cut out the primary and wound my own with 8 turns of 12 gauge solid copper wire.

I made a YouTube video documenting my fusor setup as well as a fusion run. Here is a link to the video: https://youtu.be/enId-kWrdz4
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Cai Arcos »

Nathan:

Thanks for the data. Hopefully once finals are over and the components arrive I will get to do some work.
With regards to the video, a great and clear presentation. I didn't know you were behind Gooferking Science! I remember around 4 years ago seeing your Electron Acceleraton in a Wine bottle and being bewildered. Having some experience with electronics and done a lot of reading about physics (most of which I did not understand) and being in general lost about the relation of the things I read in textbooks and the things I studied in real life, seeing something real, simple and yet so elegant was amaizing.

Keep up the good work!
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Nathan Marshall
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Re: Nathan Marshall - Fusor Progress

Post by Nathan Marshall »

Cai:
It sure is a small world on this fusor forum! I was just talking to Mark Rowley about how his cathode ray tube videos from 10 years ago were what inspired me to build mine. Yes, my channel was previously named Gooferking Science... a silly name that I came up with back when I was a kid first making YouTube videos in 2012! I changed it to Science Marshal (a play on words with my last name) for a bit more professionalism. Now it’s a channel name I feel comfortable bringing up in a job interview! I am glad that you enjoyed the old wine bottle plasma videos. I agree that it is a great demo setup since it demonstrates the physics concepts but is simple to build and easy to understand. It was a perfect first vacuum and high voltage project. Thanks for the support and I look forward to hearing about your progress with the high voltage supply once your finals are over.
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