Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

I cleaned up my system a bit. I added a permanent camera with lead vests around the viewport. I got in contact with the nuclear medicine department, and they said that I can go use their Cs-137 on Thursday.
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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

Sorry for not posting anything for so long, I've been gone for family reasons. But now I'm back, and I've got some work done. The testing of my neutron detector at the hospital was a complete failure due to a simple problem I didn't notice earlier. The wire was shorting randomly, and so the counts went crazy every once in a while. Now I've fixed that by replacing the wire, and I tested again (not with Cesium, just background) and my background was 4 cpm. I tested gamma sensitivity with a decent piece of Uranium ore and had no change in background. I still want to test again with Cesium, so I'll inquire at the hospital again. And for the fusor power, I have acquired an old x-ray transformer, which is meant to give out 65 kv 8 ma half wave, but I'm planning on going at 40 kv. I included the pictures of the tear down and assembly of my transformer. Now I'm getting ready for another run (I, very stupidly, tripped on a wire and knocked my neutron detector down. It didn't break, but the bnc connector on top of it did, so I'm fixing it now), and I'll post the results soon.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Richard Hull »

Keep at it and you will get there. The need for an un-impeachable neutron counter is more important than the fusor, itself when claiming fusion. To detect fusion your tube needs a moderator. The tube should be able to be removed. Counts made with and without the moderator are key to proof of fusion.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

Okay, I'm getting really frustrated now. In order to fix the BNC connector on my 3He tube, I had to change the wires inside because they broke as well. As soon as I did that, all of my calibration is thrown off and I've been trying for hours, but I think my Uranium ore is not what it was advertised to be, meaning my earlier calibration was screwed up as well. So now I have to work with the Cesium at the hospital, but the people at nuclear medicine won't let me stay there for too long. So instead, I thought of buying my own 10 microcuries of Cs-137 from United Nuclear (I had gone there in the past by accident while researching Polonium), but there's still no guarantee that I can get my system working. So now my plan is to buy a BTI bubble detector and use that for now, while at the same time trying to calibrate my 3He detector with the limited time I can get at the hospital (I'll go multiple times though). Now, Mr. Hull, I really appreciate your statement about how tricky it is to calibrate these detectors.
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Tom McCarthy »

Zan, it might be an idea to think about making a trip to someone who has a calibrated source or two/can help out with getting your tube working rather than spending yonks fiddling with it. There's sure to be someone with a calibrated source/tubes etc that will get you working in no time.

Check out if there are any fusioneers in the area willing to help. I see Maryland is in the vicinity of Richmond on a map. Perhaps Richard knows some people who can help if you give him a shout.

Tom
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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

Okay, thank you for the suggestion. Does anybody know of someone with a calibrated source in the vicinity of Ellicott City, Maryland?
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Nick Peskosky »

You might want to reach out to Timothy Koeth at UMD. He works in the accelerator/experimental reactor department as a professor and would likely be able to lend you a hand. I know he has given tours to many of the younger board members who have ventured his way and loves anything nuclear related.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Richard Hull »

Dr. Timothy Koeth
Associate Research Professor
Director, Nuclear Reactor and Radiation Facilities
Institute for Research in Electronics and Applied Physics
University of Maryland
301-405-4952 (office)


Tim is a good guy and he might find time to help you out. Your tube might work out OK but it is a crap shoot on whether it can be brought to reliable neutron service free of all gamma detection. Again the real test is put the tube, naked in a fast neutron field, take a one minute count, then jam it into a good moderator and count for another minute. The two counts need to be vastly different if it is counting neutrons.

Richrd Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

Thank you very much for the information.

I'll give him a call and see if he has time, and if he does I'll see what we can do. Hopefully I can get my tube working, but I'm still going to get a bubble dosimeter (If anyone wants to group purchase with me: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10962). If my detector works properly, then I'll use the dosimeter for getting an isotropic emission rate conversion factor.

Thank you again very much, this is very helpful.

Zan
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

Okay, so a lot has happened. My small x ray transformer turned out to have half a burnt secondary that was kind of intermittently working. So I replaced it. My dad happened to have a broken AMX 4 x ray that I opened and removed the transformer from. It's rated at 120 kv 25 ma and it's pretty big. So I fixed it up to my system and built a new probe out of around 180 2.2 m ohm resistors inside a vinyl tube filled with oil and a 400k ohm resistor on the end. I finished all of this yesterday, and I decided to just try it out. I recently got a usb oscilloscope, and I plugged the probe from the scope to my probe. So I fired it up just to take it for a spin, and I got it working at around 2 microns, 32kv and 30ma and I got some neutrons in my bubble detector. I attached the pictures of my new setup, new transformer, and the bubbles, but I didn't really have the cameras set up for watching my grid. I'll repeat today and post the pictures of that. I counted 3 bubbles.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Richard Hull »

Remember the key to it all related to neutron counts! You need make two equal timed readings....One with tube in moderator and then the tube out of moderator. Voltages and currents have to be proper for the count noted. 16 kv will not do much detectable fusion.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

But wait. I was not using the tube on this test. I was using a bubble dosimeter. And I also wasn't using 16kv, I was using 32.
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Kuba Anglin »

Your results look promising, but I would recommend organizing your data for clarity's sake.

Voltage:
Current:
Deuterium pressure:
Bubble dosimeter sensitivity:
Bubble dosimeter distance from ideal neutron source:
Bubbles generated:
Combined duration of testing:

Also, you should include a photo of the fusion plasma in your report. I would recommend trying to calculate your isotropic neutron emission rate. You said that you intend to operate your fusor soon. Keep all values as consistent as possible and document everything you can. Your evidence should be able to prove fusion beyond a reasonable doubt.

-Kuba
Last edited by Kuba Anglin on Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Richard Hull »

Kuba is correct. Good data presentation in an orderly fashion is a must. Those of us how have done fusion....know fusion in a way that allows critical review. Critical review demands organized, critical and precise data collection and reporting and not a scatter of numbers blasted out on a page.

With a flawless operational 3He counter the ultimate test is the two count method. One count with the tube in moderator and another with the tube outside the moderator.

The 2 micron level is unbelievably low for a D2 pressure, but experience shows that at the rather high voltage and current you claim, minimal fusion is possible. I find it amazing that you attained a glow at those levels.

Try a good report and fill in these blanks

operational data:

1. period of operation from zero counts or zero bubbles to final count or final bubble talley.
2. average voltage of operation over above time span.
3. average current of operation over time span.
4. average deuterium pressure over time span
5. image of fusor grid taken during the run.
6. if using a counter. 1. 10 minute total background count 2. count with tube in moderator over a stated operational time and 3. another count with tube out of the moderator during operation over same period as #2 count.
7. images of the bubble dosimeter before and after count if such a device is used.

Overall, you have shown most of this over a vast number of postings. Try and do all of this in one single polished report posting.

Note data accumulated over 8 runs is not allowed. fitful starts and stops are not allowed. A single run may not be stable but should be continuous. It is from a single run that the data should be submitted. Do not submit a photo from a pretty photo run and voltage and current data from another run, pressure from another or a total bubble count from three consecutive runs.

For us, you must show that a normal run of your fusor has a good average voltage of X and a current of Y and a pressure of Z and a bubble count and all data taken of a single time period of T.

All fo this is spelled out in a FAQ on how to report for inclusion in claiming fusion.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3134&p=12644#p12644

Thanks

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Kuba Anglin »

The anomalous pressure reading is due to inaccuracies in your equipment. Like you, I used a CPS VG200 vacuum gauge for my fusor. After pumping with only the mechanical pump, the gauge read 0 microns. My mech pump is rated at an ultimate pressure of 12 microns. When that gauge reads 0 microns, the real pressure is likely around 15 microns. If you want an accurate pressure measurement, get a proper tc or ion gauge. The CPS gauge is meant for automotive work, not fusion reactors. I ended up using the CPS gauge anyway and simply used the generated voltage as a more accurate guide for the pressure in the chamber.

-Kuba
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Richard Hull »

Many fusion folks, over time, learn how to tell their instruments are lying or have gone astray. Much like Kuba points out, looking at the glow and looking at the applied voltage and current can really tell an advanced or advaning user that his or her vacuum reading is crap and force them to check their vacuum gauge for calibration or failure. The true newbie is at the mercy of poor instrumentation in many instances and will have to go to the school of hard-knocks before picking a lot of this up. One cannot over-emphasize the need for at least a TC gauge in the foreline. (Sadly, even this gauge can be off a bit at the extreme low end, but is is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick and 50,000% better than a junky refrigeration gauge.)

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

I think I've got it all now:
1. 12 minute operation
2. 35kV average voltage
3. 24mA average current
4. 5-15 micron pressure (on my gauge)
5. I attached pictures of grid. Most of the time it was in the golden state.
6. I attached dosimeter images. (the bubbles are only in the top because my dosimeter slipped sideways during the test, aiming the top into the chamber at an angle, but it was under my lead shielding so I didn't notice.)
7. Dosimeter sensitivity: 73 bubbles per mrem
8. 6 inch dosimeter distance from neutron source
9. The bubbles cannot be counted because they formed a foam.
10. My x ray counts averaged around 40k cpm, with some moments over 70.
11. I added some pictures of the test setup.
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Dosimeter before testing
Dosimeter before testing
Dosimeter after
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Scott Moroch
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Scott Moroch »

Zan,

I like the way you presented your data however, I am slightly concerned about your BTI measurements. I am not an expert on Bubble dosimeters but those bubbles near the top do not appear as uniform and concise as they usually are/should be. Perhaps the quality of the image low. Did the BTI ever make contact with the chamber itself? During operation the chamber's temperature can rise significantly. The bti is sensitive to high temperature and can result in false bubbles. I have attached an image below of Bubbles I saw when I ran my fusor.


Also, regardless of the angle of the BTI, you would anticipate a relatively uniform distribution of bubbles in the BTI (generally speaking as the neutrons are emitted isotropically from the fusor.

Best of luck to you.

Scott Moroch
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Richard Hull
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Richard Hull »

Scott is correct. Rerun. We need to see formal bubble production that are clean and clear. 70 or more bubble per mrem is a very sensitive BTI! Those images do not resemble real fusion, either. Those in the know here, know. Sorry to be such a stickler, but proof is proof and we need it.

I attach images of my setup when I used the BTI and a black and white image of real-time fusion from my video camera on the monitor screen.

Note** the BTI is very sensitive to heat! Mount it where vertical convection heat from the fusor cannot warm it!

Richard Hull
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How I mounted my BTI to avoid heating
How I mounted my BTI to avoid heating
Fusor IV doing fusion at 500,000 n/s in 2009
Fusor IV doing fusion at 500,000 n/s in 2009
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

Okay, I've got a rerun.
1. 10 minute operation.
2. 24-35kV voltage. (lots of variance, mainly in the mid 20kV's)
3. 40 to 60 mA (I actually blew my variac's fuse at the end).
4. 10 micron pressure
5. Grid picture attached.
6. Dosimeter pictures attached.
7. 73 b/mrem sensitivity
8. 8 inch dosimeter distance from ideal neutron source.
9. 7 bubbles
10. Really high x ray counts, in the couple hundred k cpm. I attached an image actually.
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High x ray counts
High x ray counts
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Shows gap between dosimeter and chamber wall
Shows gap between dosimeter and chamber wall
Dosimeter after
Dosimeter after
Dosimeter before
Dosimeter before
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Richard Hull
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Richard Hull »

Zan, I have added your name to the fusioneers listing. Good going.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Rich Feldman »

Hooray for Zan!

I think the very last round was critical.
As others have said, your previous-round bubble pictures didn't match the familiar signature of neutron doses.

I bet they show us the signature of detector gel getting too hot in a small region. Fortunately it was reversible, or you had a spare detector. The scientist in me would try to reproduce that effect, by local heating in the absence of a fusor. That would be analogous with Roentgen or Becquerel steering off track to investigate unexpected glows or photo-plate fogging.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box
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Zan_Chaudhry
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Zan_Chaudhry »

Thank you everyone for everything. I have been looking forward to this for a long time. But this is nowhere near the end of my fusor endeavors. I'm looking forward to more progress in the future (chamber upgrades, grid upgrades, new gauge, calibrate my 3He tube, and ion guns!). I'm thinking about taking a break now though, and maybe trying to build a Van de Graaf just for fun.

PS: And also, my bubbles have grown, and some smaller ones are now visible, so my new count is 11.

Thanks again,

Zan
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by John Beutz »

Congratulations on the neutron club Zan! I've been watching this thread from the start, and your setup and persistence is inspiring.
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Re: Neutron Club Application- Zan Chaudhry

Post by Dennis P Brown »

Excellent work - congratulations.
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