IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

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JakeJHecla
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by JakeJHecla » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:26 pm

While I can't speak to the NeutronRAE's efficiency, I have seen 2cm-scale LiI(Eu) crystals used successfully to detect fusor neutrons at a TIER of ~100,000n/s. They can be quite sensitive if set up well.

Bern- Where are you located? If you need a He-3 tube for verification, I can lend you mine for a short while (I'm in Cambridge, Ma but will be in Monona, Wi this summer).

Bern Bareis
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by Bern Bareis » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:52 am

Hi Richard,

When I started the project, I had not anticipated that results from an off-the-shelf commercial neutron detector would not be accepted as a viable confirmation of neutron generation.

I am wondering though (particularly, since I would not like to incur additional expense for another detector). You have personally tested the NeutronRAE II yourself and described that its neutron detection is working, but weak. Therefore, a NeutronRAE II measuring 35 CPM would actually be in the presence of a greater neutron field. You have also explained that 35 CPM is an acceptable figure for confirmation of neutron generation. If I measure a count of 35 CPM on the NeutronRAE II, will that be acceptable to confirm that neutron generation is occurring since according to your measurements, the actual neutron count would be greater than what is measured?

Kind regards,

Bern
Last edited by Bern Bareis on Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by Jim Kovalchick » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:41 pm

There is an easy solution that lets you apply rigor to your current set up. Insert moderator between your neutronrae and the fusor. Take a reading. Remove the moderator. Take a reading. Compare the results and present here. You are close. Don't be afraid of challenges here. The challenges make your eventual accomplishment real. Trust me on this. Congrats on the good work so far.

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Nick Peskosky
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by Nick Peskosky » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:35 pm

Jim I'm not so sure that the oft used moderator insertion/removal method will have much of an effect on the Neutron RAE II. The LiI(Eu) scint crystal in the detector has a response range from thermal all the way up to 14MeV neutrons. In my opinion I think it would be beneficial for Bern to provide counting statistics for the following prior to our certification that he is in fact achieving D-D fusion. I won't speak for the group but I would be more inclined to approve his entry if the following were provided with his set-up:

1. Take a statistically significant background count of neutrons and gamma radiation in the room where the Fusor is located (I took overnight counts with my He-3 tube to get a decent sample size)
2. Take the background count again over a multi-minute time scale for the reactor running in glow mode (no D2 admitted) [include chamber pressure, applied -kV]
3. Take the neutron count for a Fusor run where deuterium gas has been leaked into the chamber and provide an average CPS/CPM [include chamber pressure, applied -kV]
4. Take the background count again after the HV has been de-energized

These devices are used by a lot our first responders here on base but as Richard stated they are not designed to be used as sensitive 'portal' detectors, rather as high-field alarming units during emergency/CBRNE incident response.
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Rich Feldman
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by Rich Feldman » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:38 pm

Before shutting up, I want to gently present a case that acceptable proof of fusion is not and should not be sufficient.

Refer to Administration / FAQs / Rules for neutron club membership.
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1125
If we routinely grant waivers, then please

1) update the FAQ. What good is a rule book that stays in the locker room?

2) ask applicants to say a little about themselves, their background, and their motivations.
Not a bio, just what's implicit (IMHO) in one's original Introduction.

Does the Neutron Club roll include honorees known by a name and nothing more?

Our registration rules ucp.php?mode=register are hard to check while logged in. We know that newbs often overlook "2) New members are required to introduce themselves in the "Please Introduce Yourself" forum prior to posting elsewhere on the site.". That's not very specific, but the case at hand is testing a lower bound. Before next time, please add some specifics to the Registration or N.C.Membership rules. Thanks!

Respectfully, and with no intent to disparage Bern,
Rich Feldman
Last edited by Rich Feldman on Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box

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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by Jim Kovalchick » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:48 pm

Nick,
I know you are correct that the advertised response range of the Neutronrae includes fast neutrons. I'm not sure I can believe that it is a linear response. The cross section for Li-6 is much better in thermal ranges. I think you will see a change with the moderator change test. If the device is seeing neutrons there will be a change that will look different than x-ray attentuation and reasonably the change could be used to confirm the assertion.

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Nick Peskosky
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by Nick Peskosky » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:26 pm

Jim,

You are absolutely correct, I failed to account for the higher capture cross section experienced by Li-6 when it is bombarded with thermal neutrons. Aside from the capture resonance in the 100's KeV, Li-6 is almost 2 orders of magnitude more likely to capture a thermal vs. fast N. A moderator test should prove most fruitful in this case!
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Richard Hull
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by Richard Hull » Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:57 pm

Again, 15kv is an almost not fusing fusor. Hyper sensitivity is needed at 15kv. Even a moderate sized 3He detector is struggling to produce any sort of obvious signal and a good long run would be needed after careful setup of the detection windowing.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Jim Kovalchick
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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by Jim Kovalchick » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:05 pm

As always, Richard's advice is sage. You really can do fusion at 15 kV on a well conditioned chamber, but even if your instrument can see it, you won't be able to validate the data without trend data from voltages higher than that. Back when my son first operated his fusor, he saw neutrons with a simple old PNC-1 down as far as 15 or 16 kV. If it weren't for the continuity of his numbers with a trend line drawn by data take at points upward from there to 30 kV, you really could not have said his numbers were real. Even then, it was more qualitative than quantitivative in that low voltage region.

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Re: IEC Fusion - Neutron Club Entry

Post by George Schmermund » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:02 pm

It's not unusual for information that is not directly on the well beaten path here to be ignored. High sensitivity neutron detection has previously been reported sometime back (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6245), but was ostensibly dissed by a resident oracle and the detector fell by the wayside. Some folks actually understood the experiment and its extreme efficiency (100%) and unambiguous detection of silver activation while others just couldn't wrap their minds around it. To this date no one has reported a single attempt to reproduce the results. Apparently it fell under the rubric of unauthorized use of silver activation.
Anything obvious in high vacuum is probably wrong.

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