Who are the kooks in fusion?

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Richard Hull
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Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Richard Hull » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:38 pm

For my dollar and from my view point, Cold fusion is as viable as hot fusion, regardless of how many lauded and annointed are on one side and how many of the supposed, self-deluded are on the other. One side has money and a past and the other side works from a feeling, gut-felt dedication, but with marginal evidence.

Are the kooks the ones without "good science" behind them or the ones holding out the carrot of hope and collecting huge sums of the public treasure on a circus barker's promise. Or... Are the kooks ourselves for believing or clinging to either. Perhaps it is just a fool's paradise, as it sometimes must surely seem to even the meanest intelligence willing to hop off the merry-go-round and observe the fete with cold dispassion.

I really don't care who wins. I just hope someone does. Regardless of the winner, the lucky donkey will be hailed and those who were never on board will say that they always figured something like that was probable, but just didn't think it was possible.

ITER may become the new Texas super collider debacle. Cold fusion, LENR, CANR, may remain as cold and fusionless as the annointeds believe. Meantime, the world's growing power needs will never be handled by increasing wind, solar, gas, or geothermal, even with stable and fixed coal and fission. More coal plants would help immediately. More fission of the right type will push the danger mark further out into the future. Even these bold increased CO2 and new fission moves would require a stable world economic and political environment. One wrong move and the entire human effort doesn't stumble, it falls. What might be left may not need all that projected future energy.

I guess I don't see how fusion research, as it is currently pursued, might have much of a chance in a battered world, be it from plague, war, faminine, etc. We might be lucky to have a good, solid, steam based industry, (circa 1910), left as we are crawling out of the mire with a couple of billion less people around.

My little ray of sunshine in all this.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Steven Sesselmann
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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Steven Sesselmann » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:52 am

Richard,

What prompted my recent post was this paper here..

http://www.sifferkoll.se/sifferkoll/wp- ... Submit.pdf

It appears an independent team have reproduced the e-cat device with positive results. I am in the process of reading the 52 page report now.

If Andrea Rossi turns out to be the lucky donkey, then it would be a shame, as the whole e-cat saga sounds and looks like a scam, with big claims unsubstantiated experiments and lots of secracy, not to mention demands for big dollars. All that aside, the latest results will no doubt be scrutinised by many.

The team who carried out the experiment admit that the current laws of physics can't explain the excess heat without the tell tail signs of gamma radiation, well that's what made me think.

Using a mixture of metallic powders, or perhaps layers of metallic powders lighter than nickel, possibly sintered in a ceramic tube, such reactions might just be plausible. As I briefly explained on my forum, the multi Z layered metal, forms an electrical potential funnel, into which ions of hydrogen or deuterium can fall, and as the ions bounce their way down the funnel, they give up their potential in the form of heat.

The materials for such an experiment is readily available, and I think it's worth a try.

Steven
http://www.gammaspectacular.com - Gamma Spectrometry Systems
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Sesselmann - Various papers and patents on RG

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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Steven Sesselmann » Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:53 am

Richard,

Okay I had a quick read through the document, and the mind boggles as to why it took so many measurements and 52 pages to confirm a device that presumably put out 1.5 MW of power? It should hyave been bleedingly obvious. The other thing that disturbed me is on page 7 Andrea Rossi actually has some handling in the experiment.

I don't know, but there is something very "Uri Geller" about the whole e-Cat thing, don't you think? (Maybe it is just the way Andrea Rossi conducts himself)

Note the table at the end, where an almost unbelievable fraction 99.3 of the elements have transmuted into Ni62, even the best refining methods would struggle with that one ;)

Modern alchemy...

Steven

[added comment by Steven]
Page 7 of the report describes the insertion of the all important powder (fuel) into the reactor tube as "about 1 gram" , this is scientific crap, why would anyone write a 52 page report on the anomolous energy output of this new miracle reactor and NOT weigh the fuel?


* PS: For those of you who are too young to remember Uri Geller http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Geller
http://www.gammaspectacular.com - Gamma Spectrometry Systems
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Sesselmann - Various papers and patents on RG

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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Richard Hull » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:05 pm

I agree! A 1.3 megawatt working anything shouldn't need a big report, beyond one showing how a multiplicity of errors lead to one wrong assumption after another making the whole thing a worthless debacle.

I have always said of any wonderful new energy thingy that has been shown to supposedly work........... If real, we will know in weeks as they start hitting the market enmass under license. If two months goes by and then nothing, then it was a hoax.

Watts out in my hands, talks; B--- S--- walks.

Most of what I would call credible researchers in LENR are older and many have left the field. The backwash is filling with less that desirable elements and, I fear, hucksters. This gives what remains of any attempt at truly good work little room for consideration.

Rossi, I have felt, is and was always a fellow out for money.

As long as CANR and LENR work stays on the up and up with good researchers, it is worth keeping an eye on. Good people have seen interesting results which, once seen, has forced them , even once retired, to continue to probe. Something seems to be there, but what? On the positive side, they aren't dumping our billions into their effort.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Rich Feldman » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:40 pm

I read about the independent test (of apparatus made by Rossi) here:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/10/12 ... or-32-days
followed by many comments on that popular forum.

At first glance, nobody ever claimed 1.5 megawatts.
It was 1.5 MWh total over 32 days, which is an average of about 2 kW.
The long run time, thus large total energy, are supposed to imply the minimum size and weight that would be required of conventional fuels or batteries.
All models are wrong; some models are useful. -- George Box

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Richard Hull
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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Richard Hull » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:03 pm

Still, if you are making 2 kw...... You don't need a 42 page paper to show how you pulled that out of the noise.

I want my 2kw Rossi generator now! If you don't see it in your neighborhood real soon then they will say it was suppressed by "big energy". Nothing follows and hoax better than a good conspiracy theory as to why it didn't stand a chance of help "th' little guy".

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
Retired now...Doing only what I want and not what I should...every day is a saturday.

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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Doug Browning » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:29 pm

With a claimed COPD of 3.6 to 3.7 it is less efficient than a heat pump from Home Depot. They are using electricity to make just heat. This is not going to be in stores soon.

The energy production curve does not drop off toward the end of the test, despite the fuel being nearly totally consumed by their isotope tests.

The isotopes are measured in a few granules of fuel only. Likely some thermal diffusion process has just separated the isotopes. They checked for gamma rays, but not for X-rays. Something would show up if there were really energetic particles.

The optical power out measurements sound impressive, but are they really integrating the total power output or just measuring some bright spots. A simple water cooled box over the whole thing would give an integrated measurement.

Are their electrical 3 phase power measurements capturing conduction currents through the hot ceramic between phases? The pick up in power after 10 days looks suspiciously like the lithium has diffused through the ceramic.

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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by John Futter » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:52 am

Doug
I fail to see your point on gamma vs x-ray

they are the same!!!!! only the making of is different, one is The jiggling of the nucleus, the other the jiggling of the electron orbitals.

no detector made can differentiate the which type, the detector can only give energy level and how much and treats each gamma or x-ray in the same way

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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Steven Sesselmann » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:38 am

Here is an independent analysis of the paper.

http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazi ... lysis.html

Not surprisingly the author points to many of the discrepancies we already identified, plus a few more.

Steven
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Re: Who are the kooks in fusion?

Post by Doug Browning » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:08 pm

John,
I was merely suggesting that any particles emitted would be decelerating through the material to produce any excess heat, and would eventually produce radiation in the longer X-ray radiation region, as they drop down to zero energy (since none were seen escaping the material). If the detectors were able to detect the full wavelength range from X-ray to gamma ray, then fine. A clear indication that nothing H.E. is going on. Any accelerated electrons from the electromagnetic fields of the 3 phase heating assembly would also produce very low energy X-ray/UV optical, so that would be another range to check for. To be completely thorough, a check should cover down to Microwave/radio to wavelength = dimensions of the device. Not too likely to find anything there, but after 52 pages, why not put the last nail in the coffin. That would also help rule out any (hidden) exterior heating source as well. (the AC power switching devices shown in the diagrams could be producing RF power, above the detection bandwidth of the power metering, which then gets resonantly absorbed in the device under test.)

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