Atom Smasher

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charlie_mccartney
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Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

I was thinking about making an atom smasher as a cheap little project while I look for a few investors to keep my fusor going (funds almost gone). I was wondering if anyone here has created one.
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Richard Hull
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Richard Hull »

Atom smashers can be way more expensive than a fusor due to special requirements. Usually, they take the form of a linear accelerator but they are complicated to assemble and the voltage requirements are in or near the mega-volt range. A fusor remains the least expensive nuclear device you might make and certainly one of the most impressive.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

What about something like Michio Kaku did.
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

Obviously on a seriously reduced scale, actually I was thinking about small electronics projects that I could do to further my knowldge of the subject. Do you know any cheap (<50) projects that are fun and somewhat difficult?
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Richard Hull »

What did Michi Kako do?! do you have a URL related to what he did that you are talking about?

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Tom McCarthy »

http://bigthink.com/videos/an-atom-smas ... the-garage

Here ya go Richard - I don't know much about it, but I'm fairly certain he tried to create anti-matter in his garage using some sort of accelerator, this is the first that came up under 'Michio Kaku particle accelerator garage.'

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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

He is the author of many good books on quantum physics. A Stephen Hawking of physics if you will (except he actually has real data).
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by JakeJHecla »

Kaku claims to have built a betatron. However, the device he has repeatedly described in interviews sounds only vaguely like a Betatron (Goal posts? What?). Might I add that it's not an "atom smasher," but a compact electron accelerator
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

In his books he describes it much further, do not take him as a liar, he is just saying "Want to know more, buy my book"
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Jack Rosky »

Charlie,
Here are two short videos that might be of use to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNJGqjB9uj8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xadh1enpWRU
-Jack Rosky
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Richard Hull »

Charlie, you are talking low budget, I assume. From what I read the man failed miserably at his effort as a kid, even after getting the free wire and huge amount of free magnetic iron! It was a no win. I have a problem with his blowing every breaker in the house. He probably blew the main house breaker and the line he was on. A statement like that shows he doesn't have electrical house wiring experience. There are several breakers to different areas of the house, plus a master breaker. The most you can blow are two breakers..... the line you are on and the house master breaker. It all sounds contrived.

The video URL's Jack supplied are fabulous! Could you do and acquire all that stuff in the video? Do you have the machining stuff and ability? Some stuff is just a non-starter unless you are prepared with money, time, skill and the attitude to stick it out.

Now, can you get your hands on this kind of stuff? Forget the atom smasher. You have big ideas and little cash or experience. All of that may come in time. In the meantime hit a more realistic goal of a demo fusor.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

I was just doing a little thinking here and there while waiting for my final parts, I thought I might ask your opinions on it, this was more of a question than a actual suggestion/project.
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Richard Hull »

Understood. Thinking is great as long as you realize it can't be done within the current framework of one's stage in life. Complex physical edifices, especially scientifically viable ones that are capable of amazing feats, are never DIY projects for the underfunded or underskilled. The fusor is a rare exception. The right stuff, along with the hands on imperative and a good set of scrounging skills can see a good, self-directed amateur do nuclear fusion in his home. That beats atom smashing anytime.

All true atom smashing machines will involve deadly x-radiation the like of which would make the x-ray output of the fusor look like a little peanut cart whistle. There are always lots of lethal and not so lethal catch 22's and gotcha's that are major flies in the ointment of any high energy particle physics device.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Tom McCarthy »

If you're still considering doing something like Kaku, why not down-scale it? He says he just got a ton of wire and iron and wound around a football pitch, if it's safe to do so - which it doesn't look like it is though - why not get a small amount of the materials he got and wind it around say a metre square space or something....Would that work?

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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Richard Hull »

There are fixed levels of energy (binding energy) demanded before even the weakest of the light atoms start to "Smash". Down sizing is not an option below a certain point. 1 mev would probably be the lowest level, but I bet, practically, it is a good bit higher.

Fission is a lot easier, but there is the matter of proving it. A fusor or any really good neutron source can directly hit standard old uranium U-238 (ore or, better still, U metal foil) with its un-moderated, 2.5 mev neutrons and force the U238 atoms to split or "smash" into two pieces, yeilding more neutrons and about 200+mev of energy in the nuclear debris! It's just simple physics. A cloud chamber would be the best detector of fission fragments.

Thus, with a working fusor and using its un-moderated neutron output bombarding U foil, you would definitely be doing both fusion and fission in one device! Fusing atoms and smashing them as well!

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

I was planning to do that, I originally was going to try to pull a nuclear boy scout but as it is a lot more dangerous and illegal, this is a much better approach to have both fusion and fission, especially in a science fair style setting. Would it be possible to make a inner grid out of Uranium Metal?
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

Or just a few grams of pure metal in the very center of the inner grid being suspended by a ceramic feed through?
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Richard Hull »

I doesn't matter where you put it. The neutrons will get to it, provided your fusor is working properly and doing D-D fusion.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

Yes I realize that. Also I believe if I am thinking right it will not matter if it is U-238 or U-235. If the fission takes place inside of the chamber will it interact of the Deuterium and if so how? Or would it just create a mess of fusion and fission with multiple byproducts.
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Richard Hull »

Any fission and any fusion-fission interactions would be effectively immeasurable by you using amateur gear. It would be there, for sure, but you would not know it or detect it. Again, pure and simple physics. If it were of any real value or major consequence, it would have long been done and investigated intensely by the pro's. There is no artifice by which you can have either a breakthrough or a significant, provable, gain. More ice-cold water rinsing done here to ideas for free.

Richard Hull
Progress may have been a good thing once, but it just went on too long. - Yogi Berra
Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
The more complex the idea put forward by the poor amateur, the more likely it will never see embodiment
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Chris Bradley »

charlie_mccartney wrote:I was thinking about making an atom smasher as a cheap little project while I look for a few investors to keep my fusor going (funds almost gone).
The premise of your question would seem to suggest a fusor is a more difficult project than an atom smasher. I'd be interested how you arrived at that presumption, and what cheap ways you think there might be for making an 'atom smasher'?
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by charlie_mccartney »

I was mislead, completely disregard the first post.
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Re: Atom Smasher

Post by Dan Tibbets »

If you want an atom smasher, you could build a Betatron, a linier accelerator, etc. The principles are simple. But, the implementation is challenging. Electronic designs would have to be very precise in time, etc. You could also wait 5-10 years, and possibly buy a laser based accelerator for a few thousand dollars. Alternately, you might introduce yourself to the local university. They might have some projects they might introduce you to.

Finally, you already have an atom smasher in your house. thanks to cosmic rays. Here the challenge is not producing atom smashing collisions, but detecting them. Explore cloud chambers, etc for relatively simple but possibly profound tools to further your education and appreciation.

Also, keep in mind that the particle speeds/energy needed for hydrogen isotope or even hydrogen- boron fusion is 1-2 orders of magnitude less than for robust atom smashing- it is two separate things. Generally atom smashing starts at several MeV of energy, fusion may only need only ~ 1-10 percent of this energy. R. Hull is an old Tesla coil guy and has probably worked with hundreds of thousands of volts (roughly translates into eV), but this is still only ~ 10% of what is needed for feeble atom smashing. Look up the earliest atom smashers - Walton Croft(?) electrostatic accelerators. The handling of the high voltage was a challengethat was way beyond Fusors. The Betatron was an adaptation that made the needed efforts much less. Recent laser accelerators may be even easier. Note that by easier, I mean that it might take only 1 million dollars to build a laser accelerator that matches a 100 million Betatron. My 1000 dollar laser accelerator may be a fanciful exaggeration.


Dan Tibbets
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