Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

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Richard Hull
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Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Richard Hull » Wed May 02, 2012 4:04 pm

Don Bowen talked of loading a wire with deuterium in the fusion news forum. I have moved my take on this to this forum as it seems a doable experiment and another way to get fusion, albeit again, at extreme net loss..... My transfer below picks up.

Now someone is talking experiment that is doable. However, blowing up paladium wire can be very costly. Ti or Ni would be the logical D loading choice. I would feel a lot better using a bubble detector on this as opposed to an electronic detector. The detector could be placed as close as 1/4" from the blast using an intervening piece of aluminum flashing.

I have done this sort of impulse work before when investigating water arc explosions in the 1990's. With near 100 thousand ampere pulses, it is really possible to wind up with something far more potent than a few mv neutron signal on the detector's center conductor. Leaving you to report lies

There is indeed a pinch effect in spots along a round 10 gauge wire due to amperian forces along an exploding wire, I have visual proof of this in some fragments of wire detonated with just enough energy to blow it to tiny bits without any significant vaporization occuring. What's more, the pinched breaks are hollow stress based, crystaline breaks with hollow, unfused "banana like" tips.

If the wire is single layer coiled, then and additional depressed linear channel of stress is found running longitudinally along what was the inner side of the inductor wire. (assumed to be a higher current streamline point due to the decreased inner inductance path.) It is to be remembered that the event is of a period where, almost certainly, only surface currents flow. (no "soak" in time)

Loading metal lattices to their maximum extent is a bit of an electrochemical art. I doubt I would be up to it, but the experiment sounds intriguing. With enough loaded wire on hand, one could try different impulse levels to determine if there was any fusion at all, and if any, whether there was a sweet spot in the energy input level.

Probably the best loading info can only be found in the CF websites where this has been somewhat refined over the last 20 years.

I am almost positive you would have some fusion in a properly staged event, but would it be detectable in amateur hands? I am equally sure that watt-second for watt-second, the fusor would beat it and the fusor is a terrible fusion system when looking at fusion energy released. Still, a fun piece of experiment in the fusion arena.

Stuff that would be needed.... Ni and Ti wire (20-30 gauge), heavy water, a low voltage DC supply for loading the wire, A high voltage capacitor (1-10ufd @20kv), a HVDC supply (rectified, home built, neon transformer supply would work well here. Some tiny flakes of sodium or potassium metal to create a deuterated electrolyte and finally a sensitive bubble detector 30 +++ bubbles/mrem

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Fusion is the energy of the future....and it always will be
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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Chris Bradley » Wed May 02, 2012 6:33 pm

If it would work in a wire, why not in a narrow tube of [deuterated] water (with enough ionic content to make it conductive)? If the material compression is rapid enough for fusion processes, would the water not act as much like a solid as the wire, over those time scales?

You could add a little powder of some description to make it act thixiotropically, if you felt it was necessary?

In fact.... better still a colloidal, or constantly agitated (e.g. sonic-bath type stimulation), suspension of metallic powder to improve its conductivity further still.

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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Richard Hull » Wed May 02, 2012 7:30 pm

Ideas but no experiments, yet. I think I would stick with the wire as the deuterium is in a regular lattice within a relatively good conductor. Blowing up heavy water can get rather expensive as well at about 50 cents per cc.

The ideal switch for this woudl be a hydrogen thyratron (5C22 or equivalent) .

A paper showing fusion in deuterated fibers was definitively accomplished back in 1972 is avaialble for cash money at....

http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v29/i9/p568_1

The APS, Elsver and others keep the good stuff hidden to get good cash from the curious and well heeled.

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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Chris Bradley » Wed May 02, 2012 8:13 pm

Richard Hull wrote:
> Ideas but no experiments, yet. ... Blowing up heavy water can get rather expensive as well at about 50 cents per cc.

Ideas, for sure.

What I had in my mind's eye was, say, a 0.5 to 1mm ID thick-walled nylon tube x 50mm, that you'd thread a wire in one end, to act as one electrode, and seal it, then syringe in (10 cents of) heavy water/mix in the top of the tube and seal that end with a wire too.

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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by JohnCuthbert » Wed May 02, 2012 8:58 pm

I wondered about a similar idea a while ago. Imagine silvering the inside of a glass tube then pulsing a very large current through the silver. The glass wouldn't let it go outwards ( for a while until the glass shattered) so the vapourised metal would be forced inwards. If the tube had low pressure deuterium in it I wondered if the heating and compression would generate fusion. At the time I figured that, even if it did, it would be almost impossible to prove because the electrical interference would make a conventional detector unworkable. A bubble detector might just show something. I guess it's another of those experiments I will do if I win the lottery.

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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Doug Browning » Thu May 03, 2012 3:36 am

The issue that caught my attention with the Brillouin Energy setup was the current pulse they put right through the metallic (Pd) wire, which would produce abundant conduction electrons during the magnetic "pinch". Pinch is in quotes here because they are only using a 4 Amp peak 40 nS pulse through a .05 mm wire. (1 nF cap at 240.4 V) This would give 2000 A/mm2 in bulk, but due to the fast rise time and skin effect they calculate the current density at 10^9 A/cm2 though the surface layer. They only want to generate intense phonons for their hypothesized P+ plus e- to an N reaction.

My take on this is that if anything is going on there at all, it would more likely be a P+ plus e- plus P+ to 2D reaction, since that might avoid the 782 KeV barrier for a neutron and is energetically favored. (the lattice conduction electron conveniently getting in the way while the magnetic pinch "phonon" pushes them all together, this only occuring at a very small minority of the metal lattice locations holding the P+ or there would be a small explosion)

I'm sure by now that between ICF, MTF, MIF, and now MagLIF, some have covered a tiny imploding/exploding metallic tube with 2D inside. Their version of the Lawson criterion requires something like 3 grams/cm2 (product of density and radius) and typically near mega Ampere order pulsed current for the pinch. I'm not interested in re-doing their old results, but rather in determining if the metal lattice conduction electrons can provide any significant drop in the Coulomb barrier to fusion, which would translate into less pinch current needed. (This would then beat carbon tubes for containers)

An aside:
Even in the Fusor, most of the reactions are apparently occuring with neutral D atoms or molecules being hit by high speed P+ or D+. Is the nearby electron assisting sometimes?

Brillouin Energy says their setup works with ordinary water as well (but maybe better with D2O). Plain water would be cheap enough. And only needs the outer surface of the Pd wire infiltrated with P or D reactants according to them. Their theory paper:
http://www.brillouinenergy.com/Docs/Bri ... thesis.pdf

So at some current pulse level, maybe up to 10,000 to 100,000 Amps for .05 mm wire, does one of these loaded wires begin to produce Neutrons and Gamma Rays per the conventional fusion picture. (DIY capacitor bank discharge with maybe a big Mosfet array switch) Or does it start at some much lower current level due to some electron assisted Coulomb barrier reduction? And WTH is going on at just 4 Amps that they are seeing alleged heat evolution with no radiation? Could the barrier reduction be THAT good?

Would be nice to use something cheaper than Pd wire. Brillouin ... says Ti or Ni or W wire will work too (but I don't see where they have tested that, just some of their theory projection). I would think that the wire has to at least absorb the P+ or D+ nuclei within the metal lattice vacancies.

Earlier comments in the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7657#p55500

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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Richard Hull » Thu May 03, 2012 2:42 pm

You can rule out any assistance from P+ or e- to make D in any earth bound effort. It just ain't gonna happen! P-P fusion just can't be done here for any purpose. As such, you can't synthesize D unless it is ash from a higher Z destruction process which is also unlikely in an amateur effort.

In amateur hands, P+ and e- are kinetic disintegrators (bullets) and not fusion items by normal physics. Even then, we never see them at kinetic energies where even disentegration of other products is possible.

We need to stick with D-D fusion here which is possible. We also need to keep this as a possible experimental post and not deal with a lot of alternate bizarre theories that are and will remain untestable by experiment here. I don't want this to "devolve" and degenerate into a theoretical discussion. Nuts and bolts only, please.

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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Doug Browning » Thu May 03, 2012 3:30 pm

Well, Brillouin Energy says their thing works with just plain vanilla P as well as D (ie, ordinary water versus heavy water electrolyte for loading the wire). That would seem to be a big plus for the experimental practicality.

I realise that P+ plus P+ fusion has a high Coulomb barrier and would not be happening here. But could you tell me why an electron positioned between them (the P's), with zero angular momentum with respect to the P's, could not lower the Coulomb barrier? I realize the statistics of this happening are unlikely, but the experiment does involve large numbers of conduction electrons and only a few reactions result apparently (for the Brillouin case anyway).

Normally I would expect the electron would become an orbital around one or both of the nuclei (whichever is closer), but if it has zero angular momentum available and is equally spaced between, it would be limited to an orbital which passes thru the nuclei, which would still seem to be helpful at lowering the Coulomb repulsion. Conduction electrons always have some linear momentum, so maybe they cannot be trapped in a zero angular momentum orbital? The external collective "phonon" may be the key in removing that momentum issue here so the electron can settle in. Seems to be what Brillouin Energy is saying. Presumeably, the lattice shifts so as to match momentum with the conduction electron.

The conditions for this hypothetical Coulomb barrier lowering effect are obviously dependent on extremely precise initial conditions, which would be statistically unlikely, (impossible in a plasma) except for the fact that the metal lattice provides ga-zillions of identical test cases. If the lattice, reactant and current pinch conditions are all set up "correctly", I would expect there would be a temperature dependence as thermal motion disrupts the ideal conditions. So any reaction peak versus current say, should become more sharp and higher magnitude as the temperature decreases.

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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Carl Willis » Thu May 03, 2012 5:10 pm

I agree with Richard that we need to stay focused.

The Brillouin company hasn't made ANY scientific disclosures about anything at all, as far as I can tell. When they talk about their apparatus working with protons and go on to present a theory for it, we need to recognize that, just like the Rossi crew and countless other contemporaries in the business of tech-sensationalism, (1) they are referring to a phenomenon that is proprietary, effectively inscrutable to the outside world, and may not even exist; and (2) the theory offered in support isn't consistent with established physics, but more fundamentally is irrelevant because the phenomenon itself remains cryptic.

I don't mind if people take inspiration for a real experiment from the material or procedural motifs hinted at in the world of tech-sensationalism (or science fiction, or "steampunk," or any other cultural reservoir). But I intent to keep this forum immaculately free of physically-unsupported speculation, sycophancy, link-dropping, name-dropping, and theoretical musings from that sphere. We're an "open-source" amateur science forum.

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Re: Fusion in an exploding, (imploding) wire?

Post by Doug Browning » Mon May 07, 2012 3:50 pm

I see your point on endless speculation. But it should still be useful to have some idea of what to expect result-wise from the experiment for the measurement setup.

After some more thoughts, I am seeing significant problems with the idea of conduction electron mediation of the fusion Coulomb barrier in this pinched wire configuration. The pinch forces are at right angles to the direction of conduction electron travel, so mechanical forces (or phonons) will not be able to bring the lattice motion into synchrony with the conduction electrons ( to fine tune out angular momentum of e orbitals around/thru the reactants). And the current conduction pathes through the palladium lattice forms frames AROUND the easy motion pathes for the 1H or 2D reactants, rather than intersecting them. So this hypothetical mode is likely statistically eclipsed, except maybe for some lattice flaws.

Looking thru some of the old CF literature I did however come across something of interest for a current pinched wire configuration experiment (for the case of deuterium loading anyway) as under consideration. An early proposal for a radiation free CF reaction was the Oppenheimer-Phillips effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppenheime ... ps_process
Which pulls a neutron off of a Coulomb polarized deuterium nucleus.

Apparently this was ruled out as occuring at too low a reaction rate for CF effects. One would also need to verify that it is energetically favorable for Palladium or Nickel , Ti ... etc. wire for it to proceed here. I hope to find the original paper(s) applying this to CF. They may not have considered a pinch effect shock wave COMBINED with the Op-Ph effect to enhance it's reaction rate. One would expect the pinch forces required here to be significantly less than for the usual inertial/pinch fusion schemes (a significantly reduced Coulomb barrier now). This could put it in range for DIY efforts. I would be rather surprised if it got down to anywhere near as low as 4 amps though. But a cap discharge at 10,000 Amps?

If this effect is significant here, then the reaction products would be an additional neutron added to the metal atoms (nucleus). Charged protons being the high energy product, their energy would mostly be absprbed by the metal lattice (wire) as heat, but a few would escape from surface reactions (detectable hopefully if not immersed in electrolyte, ie. final pinch done in vacuum). So quite a different set of reaction products to look for.

This effect is especially interesting since it solves the hardest part to swallow of the CF phenomena, no radiation or He products. And would change the emphasis on how to make the reaction proceed effectively. Of course, this would not be real fusion either. But it could be a means to getting high energy protons for further reaction uses or direct conversion instead of thermal conversion for a nuclear battery.

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